Sat, 7 Jun 2003
Here is my understanding of the TTP:
Feelings are the underlying structure of experience.
We experience life
in proportion to our sensitivity and awareness. Sensitivity is helping us
perceive what is going on. Awareness helps change reaction to the situation
or eliminate reactivity all together.
I have difficulty experiencing certain feelings. When I do something that
may be close to TTP, with friends, I feel something is trying to get
through, but is being blocked, like it is too much, my CM does not want to
hear what is underneath. I even stop thinking as if thinking could bring
memories and feelings.
The reason for it may be in my past, when at some point my feelings were too
much for my parents. When I cried for the first time, it was OK and they
responded in a caring way. When I cried thousandth time, my expression of
feelings was bringing some unbearable feelings in them and I was stopped.
After a few
repetitions I learned that expressing certain feelings is punished, so I
stopped expressing and then stopped feeling all together. When the feeling
arises, I withdraw, block it, react to mask it or do something to interrupt
This strips me from the fullness of experience, stops me from taking action
that can improve the situation and above all makes me repeat the situation
over and over till I learn to experience the feelings that I do not allow.
Next time the situation I engage in may be more dramatic, the level of
feeling may be higher. And I may keep doing it over and over, causing damage
to myself and others in the meantime. It is not efficient. It is like taking
bigger and bigger losses in the market, to see if they really hurt. So the
choice is pretty simple, I have three possibilities:
things the way I have been doing - increasing the intensity of feelings
and level of drama - till I experience the feeling
sensitivity, lower the resistance and experience the feeling in a
low-risk environment - TTP
Die before I
ever experience the feeling
I choose number 2 - TTP. To me it is the efficient way of experiencing the
feelings and let them take me for a ride around the forgotten part of my
psyche. The basic concept is "following", just like trend
I do not chose
what to feel, I do not want to think positively or negatively, I want to go
where my feelings take me. Run away in fear , laugh when happy, cry when
sad, scream when angry, rest when tired, relax if nothing is going on, etc.
Whether I am still interested in trading after engaging in TTP ? - I do not
know, maybe yes , maybe no. Let my feelings guide me.
I may trade much
better without being attached to the idea of being a trader. I have no idea,
what I do next and it is a beautiful feeling . My life is completely
unpredictable and most likely different than expected. Right now I feel
free. It is great !
So, that is what I think TTP is all about. Learning, through experience, how
to let the feelings guide me through life and helping others do the same.
After experiencing it more and more, I want to help more people do the same.
You asked about my personal goals. It is to be free. Actions and events in
my life are only like words in a book. They do not make the book whole and
are useless without a context. I want to change the context of my life and
help others do the same. I believe TTP is a practical and efficient way to
Please, let me join the Trading Tribe in Incline Village.
attendance is an important requirement.
you live several thousand miles from here, send me evidence of
non-refundable flight and lodging reservations for June 19, July 3 and 17
and you may attend on those dates.
might find it simpler to build an Intentional Community in your geographical
you would like to take an introductory course, to learn and practice
principles of TTP, we are planning a weekend seminar course, likely in
October somewhere in the Reno / Tahoe area.
Sat, 7 Jun 2003
Hi Ed (via another Tribe Leader),
... just wanted to say thanks for a liberating experience (I had to run and
pick up my wife or else I would have stayed a bit later).
I thought that not
having traded much the past couple weeks would make it difficult to re-live
some of the emotions, but being there in the hot seat felt almost exactly
like I was back in school, feeling everyone's eyes on me, waiting for me to
say something -- almost completely replicating the same situation/trauma.
But the big
difference was instead of the feeling of mockery and embarrassment, this
time the atmosphere was caring and supportive, which I think went a long way
in discharging the tension and fear.
On the drive home
my head felt light and a little dizzy, and right now, what's kind of strange
is that in thinking back on what happened tonight, it's hard to
"find" that feeling that I had again, all I'm kinda left with is a
color (red) but when I try to relive the emotion it doesn't come to me.
It's as if my
mind can recall and describe how I felt but my body can't
"remember" the feeling, it just stays relaxed and calm -- a very
Hopefully this was
the intention of the process, and I'm eager to see how it impacts my
day-to-day emotions while trading (I know change won't happen overnight, but
I think it was good to just get all those issues out in the open, to be
consciously aware of where those feelings might be coming from).
I feel pretty
lucky to be able to be a part of this group and to learn and share with
everyone -- like tonight, coming in I kind of shared the same concern that
[xxx] had about whether the process was able to transform us into better
traders (or whether that was its purpose at all) ... and I was glad that it
was discussed. On the way out,
I apologized ...
for taking up so much time (I didn't realize how long it took until I opened
my eyes) but he was very supportive and sympathetic, and it seems we share a
few of the same issues in regards to emotions impacting our trades. So
thanks again for leading us tonight -- I'm looking forward to the next
Fri, 6 Jun 2003
The Process has been quite helpful for me when dealing with my
co-dependency issue. As I can't stress it enough how helpful it is, I would
like to share with you the following article where I highlighted important
aspects related with identified patterns in my behavior and how the TTP can
be invaluable to reach balance.
P.S.: Apparently, the dysfunction doesn't affect my trading that much.
Anyway I feel that as I resolve my issues I become a better trend follower
and I learn to validate feelings as they come, with no labeling or judging.
As an old trader once said:
"When you trade your monitor will do a funny thing. It will become a
Fri, 6 Jun
Tried to Stay Open
Fascinating letter of June 5 in FAQ, in which the writer, who no doubt has a
pleasant personality, states "I tried to keep an open mind..."
In other words, he/she failed, mind snapped shut, and all that remains to be
experienced is the smooth calcified hard shell. The writer is not even
willing to believe there might be anything inside.
It's news to
discover someone on earth without a subconscious. Must be evolution of the
come to TTP when they are ready for it. If you try to force them, they
simply find a way out.
Date: Fri, 6 Jun
The TT Process you've developed is a robust system of ... what is it?
I don't even know
what to call it anymore. It's more than understanding. 'Experiencing
feelings' sounds too banal. Got to go through it to appreciate it, and there
doesn't seem to be a word to express the totality of the process.
It's a Holy Grail
of Emotional Intelligence Development. Nothing is forced. Each one
volunteers when they're ready to listen to Fred. Just like stopping into a
trade. Ignore the intellectual noise, stories, jokes, analyses, and ride the
trend to the end.
Worthwhile meeting yesterday, where grabbing little tufts of crabgrass
pulled up whole root systems. connected like
crabgrass. In the process it becomes obvious we are connected. So helping
others helps ourselves. Helping ourselves helps others.
Thanks for doing
the hard work of weeding.
Pulling up Feelings
like weeding crabgrass.
Fri, 6 Jun 2003
Poem About Fred
May I find a way to touch
Emotions that I fear so much
Feel them, face them as they are
Instead of running fast and far,
Knowing I'll survive the pain
When I break the heavy chain
Of pretense crafted link by link
So I would never have to think
About those feelings deep inside,
About the times I've lied and lied
To keep the disappointment still
To silence screams of anger shrill.
May I find through honesty
Belief in Fred that works for me
Before my heart is broken wide
And I can't find myself inside.
Fri, 6 Jun 2003
Why is it very difficult for many of us to face our feelings ...? Why does
it seem like... many of us enjoy, at a primal level, the conflicts we create
between CM and Fred? Could this have something to do with why our
rationality is questionable when it comes to probabilistic exercises and
nature, we resist things we don't like. In the Trading Tribe, we work with
each other to help each other experience such things. Otherwise we become
what we resist.
resisting amplifies it.
resisting dissolves it.
Thu, 5 Jun 2003
I have another item of concern. A long term standing and recurring drama has
daydream about having my eyes cut, hurt or punctured with scissors, blades
or anything sharp.
I have always
tried to ignore these awkward, strange and horrifying daydreams by
substituting them with pleasant, healthy visualizations.
they're not gone. They are there, underground, and whenever I lift guard
they show up.
you allow Fred to communicate the experience to CM, the need for external
drama (acting out) disappears.
Way or Another
Gets the Point Across
Thu, 5 Jun 2003
The time has come for me to step aside from the Trading Tribe meetings
I tried to keep an open mind about your theories of Fred vs CM, creating
dramas, etc. but I just don't get it.
I don't believe in
the principle and don't
think my trading results will be improved by giving this imaginary Fred,
these feelings "it" needs in imaginary shapes, balloons, pillows,
rocks, colors, textures and temperatures. My belief system cannot grasp
My feelings are
intangible, somewhere in my soul and spirit, located nowhere specifically in
my body, and there aren't any deep painful issues in my past.
I have had and
still have a great, fulfilling life full of adventure, challenges, and love.
No one but me is responsible for my shortcomings and weaknesses.
What really convinced me I had to step aside is when I recently started
"Emotional Intelligence"… one of the few books you recommend ...
I couldn't get
past the first chapter: this guy Daniel Goleman bases all his theories on
unproved, in fact, disproved… theory of evolution which he mentions
to as unquestionable truth at least 19 times in 9 pages.
foundational truth of the work we do at the Tribe meetings is based on the
belief that the forces of evolution have shaped our emotions over the last
million years … I can no longer participate. My truth is founded on
Genesis chapter 1 through Revelations chapter 22.
Thank you for your hospitality, and your noble intentions of helping fellow
traders. I enjoyed everyone in the Tribe and hope to keep in touch with
anyone interested. I will of course keep checking your FAQs, some of them
are fun and others offer solid, specific trading comments and insights.
Thank you also for your Risk Management report.
I wish you the very best in all your endeavors.
All the very best,
Trading Tribe does not opine about the origins of man, or religions.
Trading Tribe supports trend following, risk management, and experiencing
you have some deep feelings about not wanting to experience your feelings.
Good Book About Feelings
of Solomon, too.
Wed, 4 Jun 2003
A Question on Psychology
Dear Mr. Seykota:
I reviewed your Web site with interest, and I have a question for you.
You discuss the need to “celebrate” emotions as a means of dealing with
them rather than trying to suppress them while trading. I have recently
come across a different approach, and I would like to know if you are
familiar with it.
Specifically, I refer to “cognitive therapy” as described and
practiced by Dr. David Burns, a noted psychiatrist. As I understand it, Dr.
Burns’ book, “Feeling Good,” is considered to be the best self-help
book of its kind by mainstream mental health professionals.
prefer his subsequent “The Feeling Good Handbook,” which is a
stand-alone work. As I understand it, Dr. Burns believes that the best way
to address negative emotions is to look at the thoughts that precede and
cause them, since emotions are more difficult to change than thoughts. By
focusing on, and correcting, the cognitive distortions that caused the
negative emotions, a person begins to feel better. Dr. Burns also does
not believe in trying to suppress “bad” emotions.
Mr. Seykota, my question is this: are you familiar with this manner of
addressing emotions and, if so, what is your opinion of it? The reason I ask
is that I am presently dealing with certain psychological issues related to
my trading, and I am addressing them in the manner suggested by Dr. Burns in
The jury is still
out, since this concept is new to me, whereas my thinking patterns have been
life long. Any thoughts (or emotions) you may have would be much
Thank you for your attention in this matter.
seems compatible with many other disciplines, including cognitive therapy
and positive thinking.
Trading Tribe does not rely on causal arguments or judge feelings, so we are
unlikely to use language such as your:
distortions cause negative emotions."
tends to frame emotions as positive, in order to facilitate experiencing
to Do About Sad
say sadness is negative and that you can think your way out of it.
Trading Tribe simply experiences it.
typically results in an aha about intending sadness in the first place.
Wed, 4 Jun 2003
For a long time I've been preoccupied with the why this / that happens, and
have been under the impression that if I could get to the route of the
problem then all my trading "gremlins" would be solved and I would
be in trading heaven i.e easy profits no losses.
this feels silly because I know that's not what trading is about yet it kind
the majority of FAQ it seems I should be feeling what's going on inside me
not trying to suppress it, when things start to go wrong my left arm comes
across my chest, I sometimes put my t - shirt over my mouth and nose like
I'm hiding my face and my stomach gets tied up like I cant eat even If I was
starving. I am feeling these things yet don't seem to recall any earlier
Your thoughts are
good receiver can help you follow the trend of your feelings. As you act
them out through postures and gestures, sounds and expressions, they develop
follow feelings as they evolve and change. A good receiver supports the
trend wherever it goes.
Wed, 4 Jun 2003
I saw the comment from a reader where he wanted your site to become like a
newsgroup or chat room.
Your site is great (and unique) precisely because it is a moderated
If people want chat boards, there are plenty of those out there already!
Just my 2 cents.
Get Cool Pictures on FAQ.
Tue, 3 Jun 2003
Thank you and all the participants for this interactive and informative
I am not a
trader but have adopted the Trading Tribe Philosophy towards life.
In the past few
months, I have learned a lot about myself by experiencing my feelings,
taking responsibility for my outcomes and understanding that results
indicate intentions. People close to me have noticed a change in my behavior
and in turn I am experiencing enhanced relationships with my wife, son,
parents and brothers. Life is now smoother sailing than before although
there are still occasional storms, although far less turbulent.
I want to further my understanding and ability to use the techniques
involved in the Trading Tribe Process. I am very interested in attending a
training seminar to develop these skills and share experiences with other
considering organizing such seminars as I am confident there are many other
Once again, thank you for sharing your insight.
am planning to present a course on TTP later this year.
Wed, 4 Jun 2003
Meeting by Email
Just for the sake of reporting, I have had just one applicant up to now. As
he lives very far from my town I suggested that he could set up a community
in [xxx] where he would probably find more traders interested in the TTP.
Nevertheless, I started 'receiving' him by e-mail as we wrote to each other.
Eventually the communication derailed and he dropped out. I attach one of
our messages so that you might give some feedback.
Talking about wanting to experience feelings is not the same as experiencing
them. Experience your feeling of wanting to experience feelings.
You might also have a need to debate things while you miss opportunities.
Make sure you do not choose the market as your opponent.
There is only one way to learn about receiving: it is by sending.
The only manageable objective in trading is how much you risk. Meeting your
objectives or not is optional. See Risk Management. Try to use intentional
language (See the Trading Tribe Member Philosophy).
You may have feelings of needing approval from authority figures. This might
be rooted in early childhood upbringing.
Try to feel yourself in different situations: we both in the same room, we
both communicating by e-mail and no communication at all. Some contact is
better than no contact at all.
Perhaps ... my objective of making contact was to try out the process -
Hot-seat and receiver... see if it makes a difference.
What "contact" are you proposing, as its you that set up the club?
I don't know [your town], but it seems you live outside a big city
with lots of traders. Are there many traders where you are?
If you are willing to come to [xxx], I will be glad to receive you though,
if you need to.
Maybe ... I'd really like to try out the process. How far is it from SP?
Or you might trying setting up a TT meeting in [yyy]. You will find more
traders there and it will be easier to set up a group.
Id rather experience it first. This is new to me. I have no idea how to be
receiver. Nor really how to "experience" feelings.
I thought I was
experiencing them. Seems like most of the traders I know just want to know
when to buy and which indicators to use and prove to each other how smart
they are. I already attend a club here for chartists ... total waste of
time predicting what's going to happen, but nice for the contact with other
Irrespective of the means of communication the more you try to understand,
judge or label your feelings the more you delay the natural flow of
experience from Fred to CM. Experience your feelings rather than analyzing
Seems that this is really difficult for some people to understand that other
people have difficulty with this. Telling someone "just do this"
doesn't actually help.... maybe that's easy for you to do, but not for me
... this is why I like TT ... cos it seems it can help with that. Try
explaining to someone *HOW* to experience their feelings ... might seem so
obvious to you, but if it was, there would be no need for TT ... seems like
its a common problem. Must be one you have too to some extent,
otherwise, why set up a Tribe? Once you know how to do the
"experiencing" and resolving to an aha on your own, you don't need
Also, as I gather from your mail, it sounds like you're looking to draw
logical knowledge from the TTP.
You gather wrong. I'm trying to do exactly as the site says ... listen to
Fred ... and get he and CM to work together to create solutions and options
All the TTP can do for you as making you be just as you are and do things
just the way you do things.
You might want to read that phrase again ... it seems to equate to "no
Trading Tribe members avoid the question "Why". This question
belongs to the realm of fundamentalists.
Agreed ... in the context of Trading and learning new languages ... maybe
other stuff too. Without the question "why" what would have
changed in the last 50.000 years?
"why" (curiosity) opens the mind to the "hows" and
"what ifs" ... which is where the real progress is made. Agreed
that in trading the why does seem pointless/useless if a) there is no way to
understand the market and b) trend following systems work - which by the
way, apart from "hearsay" I have no personal evidence that they
reasons for why the stock market moves up and down too. Things don't just
"happen" there is ALWAYS a cause, always a "why" ...
just that it may be "impossible" (pointless) to calculate, or even
knowing "why" may not help get any closer to a "how" ...
like knowing "why" you do certain things, but not knowing
"how" to change them ...
I suppose you must trade, so I also suppose you have a system ... did you
buy it or design it yourself? If you designed it yourself, I'd be surprised
if it was the first one you wrote ... so I also suppose you've made
modifications to it over time.... Are you going to tell me, with your hand
on your heart, that you never asked yourself "hmmm, *why* isn't it
working? What can I change?" Or do you just "randomly" change
stuff until you're in the flow? Or do you change things based on your
If you think
about it, intuition only comes with a thorough *understanding* of the
concepts. Fundamentals .... its knowing when to use them and when not to
Knowledge of basic trading literature is a prerequisite for the TTP in the
context of trading.
What is the basic literature?
"Work, seriously, with the means at your disposal and you will be
granted that which you need and don't have, and even more".
Nice. Define "seriously".
Experience the feelings behind "wanting" to get more involved in
trading, rather than suppressing them. You might be surprised to discover
that the reasons for such longing could be anything, but making money.
I already know that. As they say ... money is just a way of keeping score.
So, lets say I discover a "reason" (a "why") ... what
Since were "communicating" ... who am I communicating with?
Are you a psychologist or something?
Are you a trader that consistently meets his objectives?
theory tends to derail the process.
the sender on track.
Tue, 3 Jun 2003
As I was working with the co-dependency drama, I kept tracking whatever
feelings came up, such as feelings of emotional abuse in early
childhood and stick to them, allowing Fred to communicate its message.
had a very interesting and fascinating insight. I was lead to my
birthing and the essential fear of leaving the safe mom's womb and
discovering the world for the first time. So, the insight was something like
this: co-dependency was the drama for the fear of taking responsibility for
is no substitute for experiencing feelings ... insight is the result of
of a Feeling
Tue, 3 Jun 2003
Tribe Report -
It does take a few tries before everyone has the technique down. I would
urge you to be on the hot seat next time, it made me a better receiver as a
result. You will gain much insight.
I also like the fact that we are developing a great camaraderie.
Tue, 03 Jun 2003
Tx for this great site. It's been helpful since i discovered. I want to join
the tribe. My name is Paulo de León, I'm a intermediate level trader
starting my own operations from my home country, Guatemala C.A.
To be honest I was making the checklist from the TT Member philosophy and i
have some few items unresolved, but willing to work through them. I have a
question maybe another member have the same problem: since there is no
trading culture here in my country, How can I start to been able to manage
the start of a community myself only ?
the ones that i know here involved in the US market are more order takers
and not traders. However I'm open to suggestions in this matter.
Tx for your help in advance, and you are a life example to me since I read
the MW books.
Tribe Directory Page
Tue, 3 Jun 2003
I read FAQ with great interest and enjoyment.
The following is a poem which I thought you might like:
The British by Tessimond
We are a people living in shells and moving
Crablike; reticent, awkward, deeply suspicious;
Watching the world from a corner of half-closed eyelids,
Afraid lest someone show that he hates or loves us,
Afraid lest someone weep in the railway train.
We are coiled and clenched like a foetus clad in armour.
We hold our hearts for fear they fly like eagles.
We grasp our tongues for fear they cry like trumpets.
We listen to our own footsteps. We look both ways
Before we cross the silent empty road.
We are a people easily made uneasy,
Especially wary of praise, of passion, of scarlet
Cloaks, of gesturing hands, of the smiling stranger
In the alien hat who talks to all or the other
In the unfamiliar coat who talks to none.
We are afraid of too-cold thought or too-hot
Blood, of the opening of long-shut shafts or cupboards,
Of light in caves, of X-rays, probes, unclothing
Of emotion, intolerable revelation
Of lust in the light, of love in the palm of the hand.
We are afraid of, one day on a sunny morning,
Meeting ourselves or another without the usual
Outer sheath, the comfortable conversation,
And saying all, all, all we did not mean to,
All, all, all we did not know we meant.
With kindest regards and best wishes,
the external symptoms of fear is not the same as experiencing the internal
properties of fear.
former is drama; the later, TTP.
Description of Fear
Tue, 3 Jun 2003
Dear Mr. Seykota,
First thanks for you quick response and advice.
I would like to join a Tribe, but I don't see a Community close to me.
Tribe Directory Page
Mon, 02 Jun 2003
Trading Tribe First Meeting
Our first meeting was quite good and VERY interesting. We started
with the basic introductions, and we went over the TTP again to see if
anyone had some questions about how certain things worked. One of the
members went in-depth about his past experiences, and we thought it was a
good idea for him to "roll" into the Hot Seat. At that time, it
just seemed very comfortable and quite natural to start.
The hardest part was when we kept talking about the experiences, and we
didn't put enough effort and time when focusing on the feelings. I felt
that this is where pacing is really important: we kept jumping to
conclusions about the feelings and how they were connected to the past.
Each time we tried to focus on a feeling like clenching fists or tightening
shoulders, we again started talking about the past. It seems like the most
obvious cause for that feeling may not necessarily be what the real issue
is. We all agreed that we only scratched the surface, and maybe we could try
again to dig deeper.
I also think that being the receiver and mirroring is really really hard at
first. I tried and tried to feel the clenching fists, but I felt sort of
empty: I couldn't feel the burning rage or helpless anger, so-to-speak.
Everyone said they could feel the feeling, and we just kind of moved on, and
I was still on the platform when the train left. Had it just been the two of
us, we would have been clenching fists all night long.
The good part was that the person on the Hot Seat is willing to give it a go
again at the next meeting, and he felt very good about having done it once. Also,
no one seemed to have that first-time awkward feeling, probably because I
think we all really want to make this work.
Ed, thanks for giving us a phone call, and it was great hearing from you.
Can you please revise our schedule to meeting weekly on Tuesdays, 630PM -
830PM? We are meeting more frequently in the beginning so that we can
get used to the process sooner.
receiving is an essential role.
2 Jun 2003
"I have always felt that the way in which women communicate is similar
to this. Women don't want a fix or judgment to their feelings about a
situation -- they just want to be able to express them to someone who is a
good listener (the receiver)."
I read this statement by another contributor in the FAQ and it resonates
with my experience. I feel that the subconscious mind has feminine
characteristics, while the conscious mind has masculine characteristics
(i.e., women always find a way to get their 'message' to men, when they want
to, or if their feelings are ignored. If the latter is the case, it can be a
source of dramas.)
In esoteric circles moon, emotions and water are associated with feminine
qualities. A lot of traders like to think of the market as an ocean ...
Trends are associated with waves ... Also, a trader who was a kind of mentor
to me, always refer to the market in the feminine. In fact, as they say,
emotions drive the markets. Therefore we might say the market is feminine,
and so is the subconscious mind.
The moral: don't try to understand or judge 'her' 'feelings'; be responsive
and follow her trend.
theories stereotype men as logical, women as emotional.
actualized men and women allow Fred to communicate with CM,
synthesizing logical with emotional.
and Emotional ...
synthesize in actualized beings.
2 Jun 2003
Regarding my e-mail on May 30 2003 titled Risk and your response.
Thank you for the basic formula possibility. I feel I can handle much
more risk at this moment however. I have been studying and thinking about
what you wrote and may consider using it when my account grows much larger.
of the money I mentioned came from my trading account including the $140,000
I put into the house and the $27,000 new SUV. I started that account with
only a few thousand dollars. I almost feel like the $20,000 in the bank is a
waste not being traded (that was also taken from my stock account as a
safety measure when the stock market was very choppy a few months ago).
I do however realize you have made it to where I want to be and I will
continue to study and apply what you have said.
I took the risk idea you mentioned and did something a little bit different.
I noticed many computer chip related stocks breaking new, 6 month to 1 year
highs and started to buy them on Friday May 30, 2003. I bought in smaller
amounts such as lots of 100 shares. I also added some other stocks breaking
to the upside. In the last e-mail I fully experienced buying too much of one
wanted to get it over with and fully experience over diversifying, although
I bought many stocks in the same sector (semiconductors). I usually do not
do this but here it is.
The small account I mentioned on Thursday May 15th 2003 entitled Risk where
I made 300% in about 15 months gave me the idea to test buying smaller
amounts in my larger account. Maybe this will work for me. I have my $40,000
account in all cash now in order to reduce my risk and stress. I am just
focusing on my larger account now.
The funny thing is it felt like I was trimming a Rose bush or something.
Kind of nice.
account was up close to $10,000 during the day before settling back to being
up only $2,963.25 for the day.
The market has been moving nicely to the upside for several weeks now and I
am wondering if the stocks that have rallied will run out of steam for a
of the [sector #1 stocks] have gone up crazy in the last few days. I wonder
if professionals would buy so extended?
[Sector #2] went up well so far even though they have increased in price
significantly. Some of them seem to be forming new bases.
[Sector #3] has become very choppy although still strong lately also.
It would be nice for my portfolio, if money started to cycle into [Sector
#4]. [Sector #5] look2 to be firming up also but a little less strong than
the other one.
The breakouts have been volatile but good for months now. I have been shaken
out of many up trending stocks. Maybe I can have more staying power during
uptrend volatility with the smaller share amounts. That is if the market
cycles the money towards the stocks I own and doesn't just sell off all
Anyway....still testing and learning..
are having nominal swings of $10,000 on a $140,000 account.
you might get a $15K - $25k swing on a big day ... That's one way to make
(or lose) a lot in a hurry.
stomach lining knows how much risk you can take.
sure Fred in not setting you up for a drama, to get you to listen to some
essential feelings, like fear.
2 Jun 2003
Now documented: Brain Kills Profits, part 2
A friend helped me figure out what I did:
I was making secret discretionary trades under cover of a system, not
"tweaking" the system like I thought when I first wrote you.
Tweaking means making adjustments to the system. In fact I didn't change the
system at all. I was trying to predict the future and make trades outside
of the system.
I abused the system by trying to get into moves early, or trying to catch
moves that the system wasn't set up for.
I also used the system as a yardstick for my secret discretionary trading.
It seems unbelievable to me now, but I consciously kept track of how many
points I was ahead of or behind the system along the way.
I like the thrill of day trading, but I just lose money day trading. I swore
off of it until I could show a monthly profit on paper. But like my friend
said, I used my system as secret cover to keep that day trading activity
what you are doing, and resolving to mend your ways ... does not ensure
your feelings of wanting excitement into TTP and let Fred sort it all out
Baby, Baby ... Yes Yes Yes !
just beat my system by two ticks.
2 Jun 2003
and lack of confidence are concepts, not feelings.
true, thank you.
feeling behind them is something that has been with me for a long time. It
is feeling that I missed an opportunity in the past, is it regret? Maybe
not feel it right now, but I remember it and it is not pleasant at all.
Right now I am trying to avoid it by making sure I do everything, what helps
me succeed. Especially in the area as important as feelings, including the
regret, guilt and all others.
my life I have been doing a lot by myself and I am tired. It is hard for me
to ask for help ... and admit that I can not do something on my own, it is
hard to rely on somebody else, instead of just myself. Actually, I just
discovered it as I am writing ... I feel lighter ... I feel hope ...
I greatly appreciate your help.
missed an opportunity
have properties like size, shape, texture, temperature, weight location,
spin, sound, taste, etc.
good receiver can help you focus on feelings.
for Feeling Heat
2 Jun 2003
<<Everyone has a Fred, and all the Freds connect together. Under Fred
is the primary communication network that connects all the Freds. >>
Would you care to elaborate on the Under Fred concept?
I have read quite a few books by Ram Dass. As you probably know Ram Dass
formerly known as Richard Alpert, a Harvard professor, a son of a wealthy
Boston lawyer, who ran off to India for answers to his questions on
existence, mysticism, and spirituality.
One of his books is The Only Dance There Is. He talks about cosmic
consciousness that links all of us.
There have been some interesting double bind studies done about groups
getting together lets say in Wisconsin and praying for a patient in New
York. Amazingly the patient who was prayed for did much better case after
case than other patients in the same hospital with the same disease !
Are they tapping into a collective under Fred network?
I appreciate you taking the time to read this and I look forward to your
PS. Our Manhattan group is doing really well, everyone seems to be
catching on to TTP.
specializes in bringing people together to work out dramas.
of Under Fred's Secret Agents
02 Jun 2003
Weekend Tribe Meeting Feedback
Thank you for inviting us to the Weekend Trading Tribe Meeting. For me, it
was a life altering experience.
The hike was challenging, rewarding, and enormously informative.
I cannot believe that I was out in front leading the singing for our session
front of the Microphone, out in public. It has been years since I have felt
in front of a crowd.
Again, thanks for the weekend's fun and frolic. I am planning on coming to
the Thursday's tribe meeting.
I feel, I feel, I feel, fully experiencing hot feet and stressed gluts, and
exhilaration of climbing to 8111 feet, under my own steam (admittedly putt
putting at the top).
Sharing some extraordinary moments with a load of Honkie Tonk singing and
twanging - loads of fun. Let's do it again! I'm ready.
Party above Marlette Lake
Seat Friday Night
in Public Saturday Night
can support Fred
have fun at the same time.
2 Jun 2003
Risk-Based Position Sizing
Dear Mr. Seykota,
I want to thank you for your generosity in sharing so many of your insights
as well as for your great book recommendations.
I just finished reading "Emotional Intelligence", which has helped
increase my own self-awareness, which in turn will surely help in developing
my own self. What I take away from the book in terms of trading is that
trading, above all, is about intrapersonal emotional intelligence
(self-awareness and self-discipline), i.e. controlling impulse, putting of
gratification, regulating one's moods, and continues self-motivation.
I also recently read your article on risk management and wanted to ask
you if risk-basis position sizing is a sound way of optimizing position
size, given that both the probability of being right, and the payoff, are
unknowns before one enters into a position in the market?
Thanks again for your insights and inspiration.
All the best,
thing you measure generally improves; to manage risk, measure risk.
2 Jun 2003
beliefs vs. feelings
Thanks again for a superb 'life-changing' forum. I wanted to get some
clarity from you on the matter of thoughts/irrational beliefs actually
is a well-know concept in modern psychology (cognitive psychology, to be
precise) that our thoughts/beliefs about a particular event or situation
result in specific feeling (s) re that situation, ie. the way we interpret a
situation determines how we feel.
simple example: a dog barks, resulting in a person feeling fear. The
reason the person feels fear is because he interprets the situation
(barking) as being dangerous/a threat ("This dog will bite
me", for example, is the specific thought which leads to the emotion of
fear). Another person may interpret the dog's barking as a willingness to
play, and therefore feel good or excited about the dog (all based on the
initial thought / belief / interpretation about the event).
Relating this to the TTP: when I concentrate on feeling the feelings, I
often become aware of the thoughts that may have led to those feelings eg.
"I'm stupid/no-good etc etc".
question is, do you not think it is helpful to deal with these
thoughts/beliefs - by verifying them, for example, as being true or false,
as a way of effectively dealing with the feelings?
aim being, if one can cognitively show oneself that one is not stupid at all
(possibly even intelligent, in fact), by pointing out one's academic
accomplishments/past intelligent behaviour for example, then the feeling
which is associated with being "stupid" will in fact dissolve.
concern in not dealing with the irrational thoughts/beliefs (and only
feeling the feelings) is that those feelings will re-occur and re-occur
(perhaps in other situations) unless the underling irrational beliefs about
oneself (which led to the feelings) are not dealt with, by for example
verifying them as being true or false.
Your comments on the subject will be greatly appreciated, and also what to
do about those irrational beliefs when they come up while feeling the
feelings ie. perhaps ignore them/just keep feeling whatever comes up etc.
Thanks very much.
The Trading Tribe Process for a model and techniques.
you could simply make up your mind to control your feelings:
would always act rationally
could follow systems easily
would rarely feel sad, angry, afraid, etc.
is little evidence that anyone enjoys such conscious mastery.
reaction to the barking dog occurs way before you become consciously aware
of the dog.
a Barking Dog
just a barking dog
1 Jun 2003 19:44:18 -0500
Minneapolis Trading Tribe
I live in Minneapolis, Minnesota and am interested in starting a trading
tribe in my area. I have done quite a bit of reading on the interaction of
emotions and logic and am convinced that reconciling the two holds great
potential in a person increasing their effectiveness in life. I have am
familiar with TTP and would like to explore it further.
Tribe Directory Page
1 Jun 2003
discussion instead of Q&A?
Dear Mr. Seykota:
While I enjoy reading the FAQ and am very happy to have gained certain
insights, may I ask if you may change the format from a Q&A to more
like a newsgroup, with you still guiding us but allow others to join the
were times when I would like to make a comment or ask the author a
question to certain postings because I had similar experiences, and
there is no easy way to do so.
for someone who makes multiple follow-ups on his question, it is getting to
a point where at times it is difficult for me (and perhaps others too) to
keep track of his original concerns.
In any case, thank you very much for the website. I feel I have learned a
great deal through the others' questions and from your responses. Thank you
is a classroom forum in which traders can ask questions, become examples,
and support each other. See Ground Rules.
can join or start an intentional community and interact at intimate range.
might have some feelings about wanting to control things. This tendency can
be plenty expensive in the markets.
Students Prefer Classrooms Without Adult Supervision
1 Jun 2003
a friend a Tribe Member)
Fred does not recognize boundaries
Fred will not stay in the box
Fred is not fond of orderly lines,
Restrictions, prescriptions, constrictions, or fines.
Fred cannot stand keys or locks.
Fred often exhibits bad manners.
Fred likes unconventional means
Fred only works when it feels like play
Creating, relating, elating all day
Fred loves to fly in our dreams.
All my best,
dig Fred ... and they dig men who let Fred out.
Fierce and Playful
1 Jun 2003
Stopwatch is a Stopwatch
I wanted to follow up my earlier e-mail about time frames. I apply a simple
m/a system to futures not stocks (not yet anyway), on futures it catches the
meat of the swing / trend, maybe it can help with stock trading. The data is
intraday but the trades are not and of course it takes considerable thought
to develop rules that suit the individual. I have software that plots these
indicators, but it would seem that they could as easily be calculated on a
30 minute price bars
30 minute exponential moving average 13 period
90 minute exponential moving average 13 period (calculated on 90 minute
120 minute exponential moving average 13 period (calculated on 120 minute
I prefer to not show the price bars on the chart once the m/a's have been
I review the charts to determine how the m/a's are getting along with each
other, and I pay close attention to managing my trading capital. I would be
interested on more info on your seminar when you get around to it.
value of an exponential average obtains per:
= At-1 + dt/T (Pt - At-1)
Example: Say a price is stable at 5 and then changes to 10. You sample the
data every 5 minutes and use a 25 minute Time Constant.
= 5 + (5/25)(10 - 5)
= 6 + (5/25)(10 - 6)
Exponential Average decays toward ten.
sampling interval of 30 minutes (30 minute price bars) is way too large to
compute a 30 minute exponential average with any accuracy.