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June 1-7, 2003





Sat, 7 Jun 2003


Application to Incline Village

Trading Tribe

Dear Ed,

Here is my understanding of the TTP:

Feelings are the underlying structure of experience.


We experience life in proportion to our sensitivity and awareness. Sensitivity is helping us perceive what is going on. Awareness helps change reaction to the situation or eliminate reactivity all together.

I have difficulty experiencing certain feelings. When I do something that may be close to TTP, with friends, I feel something is trying to get through, but is being blocked, like it is too much, my CM does not want to hear what is underneath. I even stop thinking as if thinking could bring memories and feelings.

The reason for it may be in my past, when at some point my feelings were too much for my parents. When I cried for the first time, it was OK and they responded in a caring way. When I cried thousandth time, my expression of feelings was bringing some unbearable feelings in them and I was stopped.


After a few repetitions I learned that expressing certain feelings is punished, so I stopped expressing and then stopped feeling all together. When the feeling arises, I withdraw, block it, react to mask it or do something to interrupt it.

This strips me from the fullness of experience, stops me from taking action that can improve the situation and above all makes me repeat the situation over and over till I learn to experience the feelings that I do not allow. Next time the situation I engage in may be more dramatic, the level of feeling may be higher. And I may keep doing it over and over, causing damage to myself and others in the meantime. It is not efficient. It is like taking bigger and bigger losses in the market, to see if they really hurt. So the choice is pretty simple, I have three possibilities:


Keep doing things the way I have been doing - increasing the intensity of feelings and level of drama - till I experience the feeling

Change my sensitivity, lower the resistance and experience the feeling in a low-risk environment - TTP

Die before I ever experience the feeling

I choose number 2 - TTP. To me it is the efficient way of experiencing the feelings and let them take me for a ride around the forgotten part of my psyche. The basic concept is "following", just like trend following.


I do not chose what to feel, I do not want to think positively or negatively, I want to go where my feelings take me. Run away in fear , laugh when happy, cry when sad, scream when angry, rest when tired, relax if nothing is going on, etc. Whether I am still interested in trading after engaging in TTP ? - I do not know, maybe yes , maybe no. Let my feelings guide me.


I may trade much better without being attached to the idea of being a trader. I have no idea, what I do next and it is a beautiful feeling . My life is completely unpredictable and most likely different than expected. Right now I feel free. It is great !
So, that is what I think TTP is all about. Learning, through experience, how to let the feelings guide me through life and helping others do the same. After experiencing it more and more, I want to help more people do the same.

You asked about my personal goals. It is to be free. Actions and events in my life are only like words in a book. They do not make the book whole and are useless without a context. I want to change the context of my life and help others do the same. I believe TTP is a practical and efficient way to do it.

Please, let me join the Trading Tribe in Incline Village.

Regular attendance is an important requirement.


As you live several thousand miles from here, send me evidence of non-refundable flight and lodging reservations for June 19, July 3 and 17 and you may attend on those dates.


You might find it simpler to build an Intentional Community in your geographical area.


If you would like to take an introductory course, to learn and practice principles of TTP, we are planning a weekend seminar course, likely in October somewhere in the Reno / Tahoe area.

Sat, 7 Jun 2003


Hot Seat Experience

Hi Ed (via another Tribe Leader),

... just wanted to say thanks for a liberating experience (I had to run and pick up my wife or else I would have stayed a bit later).


I thought that not having traded much the past couple weeks would make it difficult to re-live some of the emotions, but being there in the hot seat felt almost exactly like I was back in school, feeling everyone's eyes on me, waiting for me to say something -- almost completely replicating the same situation/trauma.


But the big difference was instead of the feeling of mockery and embarrassment, this time the atmosphere was caring and supportive, which I think went a long way in discharging the tension and fear.


On the drive home my head felt light and a little dizzy, and right now, what's kind of strange is that in thinking back on what happened tonight, it's hard to "find" that feeling that I had again, all I'm kinda left with is a color (red) but when I try to relive the emotion it doesn't come to me.


It's as if my mind can recall and describe how I felt but my body can't "remember" the feeling, it just stays relaxed and calm -- a very odd state.


Hopefully this was the intention of the process, and I'm eager to see how it impacts my day-to-day emotions while trading (I know change won't happen overnight, but I think it was good to just get all those issues out in the open, to be consciously aware of where those feelings might be coming from).


I feel pretty lucky to be able to be a part of this group and to learn and share with everyone -- like tonight, coming in I kind of shared the same concern that [xxx] had about whether the process was able to transform us into better traders (or whether that was its purpose at all) ... and I was glad that it was discussed. On the way out,


I apologized ... for taking up so much time (I didn't realize how long it took until I opened my eyes) but he was very supportive and sympathetic, and it seems we share a few of the same issues in regards to emotions impacting our trades. So thanks again for leading us tonight -- I'm looking forward to the next meeting.


Fri, 6 Jun 2003


Co-dependency and TTP

Dear Ed:

The Process has been quite helpful for me when dealing with my co-dependency issue. As I can't stress it enough how helpful it is, I would like to share with you the following article where I highlighted important aspects related with identified patterns in my behavior and how the TTP can be invaluable to reach balance.


Article: http://www.nmha.org/infoctr/


P.S.: Apparently, the dysfunction doesn't affect my trading that much. Anyway I feel that as I resolve my issues I become a better trend follower and I learn to validate feelings as they come, with no labeling or judging. As an old trader once said:

"When you trade your monitor will do a funny thing. It will become a mirror."


 Fri, 6 Jun 2003

Tried to Stay Open

Fascinating letter of June 5 in FAQ, in which the writer, who no doubt has a pleasant personality, states "I tried to keep an open mind..."

In other words, he/she failed, mind snapped shut, and all that remains to be experienced is the smooth calcified hard shell. The writer is not even willing to believe there might be anything inside.


It's news to discover someone on earth without a subconscious. Must be evolution of the human species.


Clamming Up

Clip: http://clamav.elektrapro.com/ 

People come to TTP when they are ready for it.  If you try to force them, they simply find a way out.

Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003


Can't Describe It

Dear Ed,

The TT Process you've developed is a robust system of ... what is it?


I don't even know what to call it anymore. It's more than understanding. 'Experiencing feelings' sounds too banal. Got to go through it to appreciate it, and there doesn't seem to be a word to express the totality of the process.


It's a Holy Grail of Emotional Intelligence Development. Nothing is forced. Each one volunteers when they're ready to listen to Fred. Just like stopping into a trade. Ignore the intellectual noise, stories, jokes, analyses, and ride the trend to the end.

Worthwhile meeting yesterday, where grabbing little tufts of crabgrass pulled up whole root systems.
connected like crabgrass. In the process it becomes obvious we are connected. So helping others helps ourselves. Helping ourselves helps others.


Thanks for doing the hard work of weeding.



Pulling up Feelings


is like weeding crabgrass.

Clip: http://www.singulair.com/





Fri, 6 Jun 2003


Poem About Fred

Dear Ed,

May I find a way to touch
Emotions that I fear so much

Feel them, face them as they are
Instead of running fast and far,

Knowing I'll survive the pain
When I break the heavy chain

Of pretense crafted link by link
So I would never have to think

About those feelings deep inside,
About the times I've lied and lied

To keep the disappointment still
To silence screams of anger shrill.

May I find through honesty
Belief in Fred that works for me

Before my heart is broken wide
And I can't find myself inside.



Fri, 6 Jun 2003


Resistance and Persistence

Hi, Ed

Why is it very difficult for many of us to face our feelings ...? Why does it seem like... many of us enjoy, at a primal level, the conflicts we create between CM and Fred? Could this have something to do with why our rationality is questionable when it comes to probabilistic exercises and following trends?

By nature, we resist things we don't like. In the Trading Tribe, we work with each other to help each other experience such things. Otherwise we become what we resist.





Resisting resisting amplifies it.

Experiencing resisting dissolves it.


Clip: http://webhome.idirect.com/~jadams/


Thu, 5 Jun 2003


Getting the Point

I have another item of concern. A long term standing and recurring drama has intensified recently.


I often daydream about having my eyes cut, hurt or punctured with scissors, blades or anything sharp.


I have always tried to ignore these awkward, strange and horrifying daydreams by substituting them with pleasant, healthy visualizations.


Nevertheless they're not gone. They are there, underground, and whenever I lift guard they show up.

When you allow Fred to communicate the experience to CM, the need for external drama (acting out)  disappears.




One Way or Another

Fred Gets the Point Across


Clip: www.sharon-lee.com.au/


Thu, 5 Jun 2003



Dear Ed,

The time has come for me to step aside from the Trading Tribe meetings

I tried to keep an open mind about your theories of Fred vs CM, creating dramas, etc. but I just don't get it.

I don't believe in the principle and don't
think my trading results will be improved by giving this imaginary Fred, these feelings "it" needs in imaginary shapes, balloons, pillows, rocks, colors, textures and temperatures. My belief system cannot grasp that.


My feelings are intangible, somewhere in my soul and spirit, located nowhere specifically in my body, and there aren't any deep painful issues in my past.


I have had and still have a great, fulfilling life full of adventure, challenges, and love. No one but me is responsible for my shortcomings and weaknesses.


Fred doesn't live here.

What really convinced me I had to step aside is when I recently started reading
"Emotional Intelligence"… one of the few books you recommend ... I couldn't get
past the first chapter: this guy Daniel Goleman bases all his theories on the
unproved, in fact, disproved… theory of evolution
which he mentions and refers
to as unquestionable truth at least 19 times in 9 pages.


If the foundational truth of the work we do at the Tribe meetings is based on the belief that the forces of evolution have shaped our emotions over the last million years … I can no longer participate. My truth is founded on Genesis chapter 1 through Revelations chapter 22.

Thank you for your hospitality, and your noble intentions of helping fellow traders. I enjoyed everyone in the Tribe and hope to keep in touch with anyone interested. I will of course keep checking your FAQs, some of them are fun and others offer solid, specific trading comments and insights. Thank you also for your Risk Management report.

I wish you the very best in all your endeavors.

All the very best,

The Trading Tribe does not opine about the origins of man, or religions.


The Trading Tribe supports trend following, risk management, and experiencing feelings.


Likely, you have some deep feelings about not wanting to experience your feelings.




A Good Book About Feelings


See Psalms


Song of Solomon, too.


Clip: www.unityofthebrethren.org/


Wed, 4 Jun 2003

A Question on Psychology

Dear Mr. Seykota:

I reviewed your Web site with interest, and I have a question for you.

You discuss the need to “celebrate” emotions as a means of dealing with them rather than trying to suppress them while trading. I have recently come across a different approach, and I would like to know if you are familiar with it.

Specifically, I refer to “cognitive therapy” as described and practiced by Dr. David Burns, a noted psychiatrist. As I understand it, Dr. Burns’ book, “Feeling Good,” is considered to be the best self-help book of its kind by mainstream mental health professionals.

Personally, I prefer his subsequent “The Feeling Good Handbook,” which is a stand-alone work. As I understand it, Dr. Burns believes that the best way to address negative emotions is to look at the thoughts that precede and cause them, since emotions are more difficult to change than thoughts. By focusing on, and correcting, the cognitive distortions that caused the negative emotions, a person begins to feel better. Dr. Burns also does not believe in trying to suppress “bad” emotions.

Mr. Seykota, my question is this: are you familiar with this manner of addressing emotions and, if so, what is your opinion of it? The reason I ask is that I am presently dealing with certain psychological issues related to my trading, and I am addressing them in the manner suggested by Dr. Burns in his books.


The jury is still out, since this concept is new to me, whereas my thinking patterns have been life long. Any thoughts (or emotions) you may have would be much appreciated.

Thank you for your attention in this matter.

Yours truly

TTP seems compatible with many other disciplines, including cognitive therapy and positive thinking.


The Trading Tribe does not rely on causal arguments or judge feelings, so we are unlikely to use language such as your:


"Cognitive distortions cause negative emotions."


TTP tends to frame emotions as positive, in order to facilitate experiencing them.




What to Do About Sad


Some say sadness is negative and that you can think your way out of it.


The Trading Tribe simply experiences it.

 This typically results in an aha about intending sadness in the first place.


Clip: www.metoffice.com/health/


Wed, 4 Jun 2003

Dear Ed,

For a long time I've been preoccupied with the why this / that happens, and have been under the impression that if I could get to the route of the problem then all my trading "gremlins" would be solved and I would be in trading heaven i.e easy profits no losses.


Just writing this feels silly because I know that's not what trading is about yet it kind of appeared.


After reading the majority of FAQ it seems I should be feeling what's going on inside me not trying to suppress it, when things start to go wrong my left arm comes across my chest, I sometimes put my t - shirt over my mouth and nose like I'm hiding my face and my stomach gets tied up like I cant eat even If I was starving. I am feeling these things yet don't seem to recall any earlier experiences.


Your thoughts are always appreciated.

A good receiver can help you follow the trend of your feelings. As you act them out through postures and gestures, sounds and expressions, they develop toward release.




Tribe Members

Experience Their Feelings


We follow feelings as they evolve and change. A good receiver supports the trend wherever it goes.



Clip: http://espn.go.com/page2/s/


Wed, 4 Jun 2003


Two Cents

Hi Ed

I saw the comment from a reader where he wanted your site to become like a newsgroup or chat room.

Your site is great (and unique) precisely because it is a moderated classroom.

If people want chat boards, there are plenty of those out there already!

Just my 2 cents.




You Get Cool Pictures on FAQ.



Clip: www.ocdsb.edu.on.ca/


Tue, 3 Jun 2003



Hi Ed,

Thank you and all the participants for this interactive and informative forum.


I am not a trader but have adopted the Trading Tribe Philosophy towards life.

In the past few months, I have learned a lot about myself by experiencing my feelings, taking responsibility for my outcomes and understanding that results indicate intentions. People close to me have noticed a change in my behavior and in turn I am experiencing enhanced relationships with my wife, son, parents and brothers. Life is now smoother sailing than before although there are still occasional storms, although far less turbulent.

I want to further my understanding and ability to use the techniques involved in the Trading Tribe Process. I am very interested in attending a training seminar to develop these skills and share experiences with other attendees.


Are you considering organizing such seminars as I am confident there are many other interested individuals.

Once again, thank you for sharing your insight.

I am planning to present a course on TTP later this year.

Wed, 4 Jun 2003


Meeting by Email

Dear Ed:

Just for the sake of reporting, I have had just one applicant up to now. As he lives very far from my town I suggested that he could set up a community in [xxx] where he would probably find more traders interested in the TTP.

Nevertheless, I started 'receiving' him by e-mail as we wrote to each other. Eventually the communication derailed and he dropped out. I attach one of our messages so that you might give some feedback.

Best regards,


Talking about wanting to experience feelings is not the same as experiencing them. Experience your feeling of wanting to experience feelings.

You might also have a need to debate things while you miss opportunities. Make sure you do not choose the market as your opponent.

There is only one way to learn about receiving: it is by sending.

The only manageable objective in trading is how much you risk. Meeting your objectives or not is optional. See Risk Management. Try to use intentional language (See the Trading Tribe Member Philosophy).

You may have feelings of needing approval from authority figures. This might be rooted in early childhood upbringing.


Try to feel yourself in different situations: we both in the same room, we both communicating by e-mail and no communication at all. Some contact is better than no contact at all.

Perhaps ... my objective of making contact was to try out the process - Hot-seat and receiver... see if it makes a difference.

What "contact" are you proposing, as its you that set up the club? I don't know [your town],  but it seems you live outside a big city with lots of traders. Are there many traders where you are?

If you are willing to come to [xxx], I will be glad to receive you though, if you need to.

Maybe ... I'd really like to try out the process. How far is it from SP?

Or you might trying setting up a TT meeting in [yyy]. You will find more traders there and it will be easier to set up a group.

Id rather experience it first. This is new to me. I have no idea how to be receiver. Nor really how to "experience" feelings.


I thought I was experiencing them. Seems like most of the traders I know just want to know when to buy and which indicators to use and prove to each other how smart they are. I already attend a club here for chartists ... total waste of time predicting what's going to happen, but nice for the contact with other traders.

Irrespective of the means of communication the more you try to understand, judge or label your feelings the more you delay the natural flow of experience from Fred to CM. Experience your feelings rather than analyzing them.

Seems that this is really difficult for some people to understand that other people have difficulty with this. Telling someone "just do this" doesn't actually help.... maybe that's easy for you to do, but not for me ... this is why I like TT ... cos it seems it can help with that. Try explaining to someone *HOW* to experience their feelings ... might seem so obvious to you, but if it was, there would be no need for TT ... seems like its a common problem. Must be one you have too to some extent, otherwise, why set up a Tribe? Once you know how to do the "experiencing" and resolving to an aha on your own, you don't need a club.

Also, as I gather from your mail, it sounds like you're looking to draw logical knowledge from the TTP.

You gather wrong. I'm trying to do exactly as the site says ... listen to Fred ... and get he and CM to work together to create solutions and options ...

All the TTP can do for you as making you be just as you are and do things just the way you do things.

You might want to read that phrase again ... it seems to equate to "no change" ...

Trading Tribe members avoid the question "Why". This question belongs to the realm of fundamentalists.

Agreed ... in the context of Trading and learning new languages ... maybe other stuff too. Without the question "why" what would have changed in the last 50.000 years?


The "why" (curiosity) opens the mind to the "hows" and "what ifs" ... which is where the real progress is made. Agreed that in trading the why does seem pointless/useless if a) there is no way to understand the market and b) trend following systems work - which by the way, apart from "hearsay" I have no personal evidence that they do.


There are reasons for why the stock market moves up and down too. Things don't just "happen" there is ALWAYS a cause, always a "why" ... just that it may be "impossible" (pointless) to calculate, or even knowing "why" may not help get any closer to a "how" ... like knowing "why" you do certain things, but not knowing "how" to change them ...

I suppose you must trade, so I also suppose you have a system ... did you buy it or design it yourself? If you designed it yourself, I'd be surprised if it was the first one you wrote ... so I also suppose you've made modifications to it over time.... Are you going to tell me, with your hand on your heart, that you never asked yourself "hmmm, *why* isn't it working? What can I change?" Or do you just "randomly" change stuff until you're in the flow? Or do you change things based on your "intuition"?


If you think about it, intuition only comes with a thorough *understanding* of the concepts. Fundamentals .... its knowing when to use them and when not to ....

Knowledge of basic trading literature is a prerequisite for the TTP in the context of trading.

What is the basic literature?

"Work, seriously, with the means at your disposal and you will be granted that which you need and don't have, and even more".

Nice. Define "seriously".

Experience the feelings behind "wanting" to get more involved in trading, rather than suppressing them. You might be surprised to discover that the reasons for such longing could be anything, but making money.

I already know that. As they say ... money is just a way of keeping score.

So, lets say I discover a "reason" (a "why") ... what then?

Since were "communicating" ... who am I communicating with?

Are you a psychologist or something?

Are you a trader that consistently meets his objectives?

Discussing theory tends to derail the process.



A Good Receiver


keeps the sender on track.


Clip: www.ocdsb.edu.on.ca/KARSweb/



Tue, 3 Jun 2003


Feelings and Insights

As I was working with the co-dependency drama, I kept tracking whatever feelings came up, such as feelings of emotional abuse in early childhood and stick to them, allowing Fred to communicate its message.


Eventually, I had a very interesting and fascinating insight. I was lead to my birthing and the essential fear of leaving the safe mom's womb and discovering the world for the first time. So, the insight was something like this: co-dependency was the drama for the fear of taking responsibility for myself.

Insight is no substitute for experiencing feelings ... insight is the result of experiencing feelings.



Insight Inside


Birth of a Feeling


Clip: www.casadeyogacenter.com/


Tue, 3 Jun 2003


Tribe Report - Practice

It does take a few tries before everyone has the technique down. I would urge you to be on the hot seat next time, it made me a better receiver as a result. You will gain much insight.

I also like the fact that we are developing a great camaraderie.


Tue, 03 Jun 2003


Guatemala Tribe

Dear Ed:

Tx for this great site. It's been helpful since i discovered. I want to join the tribe. My name is Paulo de León, I'm a intermediate level trader starting my own operations from my home country, Guatemala C.A.
To be honest I was making the checklist from the TT Member philosophy and i have some few items unresolved, but willing to work through them. I have a question maybe another member have the same problem: since there is no trading culture here in my country, How can I start to been able to manage the start of a community myself only ?

the ones that i know here involved in the US market are more order takers and not traders. However I'm open to suggestions in this matter.

Tx for your help in advance, and you are a life example to me since I read the MW books.



Guatemala !


See: Tribe Directory Page






Clip: www.globalgeografia.com/


Tue, 3 Jun 2003


Hello Ed,

I read FAQ with great interest and enjoyment.

The following is a poem which I thought you might like:

The British by Tessimond

We are a people living in shells and moving
Crablike; reticent, awkward, deeply suspicious;
Watching the world from a corner of half-closed eyelids,
Afraid lest someone show that he hates or loves us,
Afraid lest someone weep in the railway train.

We are coiled and clenched like a foetus clad in armour.
We hold our hearts for fear they fly like eagles.
We grasp our tongues for fear they cry like trumpets.
We listen to our own footsteps. We look both ways
Before we cross the silent empty road.

We are a people easily made uneasy,
Especially wary of praise, of passion, of scarlet
Cloaks, of gesturing hands, of the smiling stranger
In the alien hat who talks to all or the other
In the unfamiliar coat who talks to none.

We are afraid of too-cold thought or too-hot
Blood, of the opening of long-shut shafts or cupboards,
Of light in caves, of X-rays, probes, unclothing
Of emotion, intolerable revelation
Of lust in the light, of love in the palm of the hand.

We are afraid of, one day on a sunny morning,
Meeting ourselves or another without the usual
Outer sheath, the comfortable conversation,
And saying all, all, all we did not mean to,
All, all, all we did not know we meant.

With kindest regards and best wishes,

Describing the external symptoms of fear is not the same as experiencing the internal properties of fear.


The former is drama; the later, TTP.




British Gentleman


Politely Considering

a Description of Fear








Tue, 3 Jun 2003

Aachen Tribe

Dear Mr. Seykota,

First thanks for you quick response and advice.

I would like to join a Tribe, but I don't see a Community close to me.




Germany !


See: Tribe Directory Page



Cathedral at Aachen


Clip: http://accms04.physik.


Mon, 02 Jun 2003

San Jose Trading Tribe First Meeting

Hi Ed,

Our first meeting was quite good and VERY interesting. We started with the basic introductions, and we went over the TTP again to see if anyone had some questions about how certain things worked. One of the members went in-depth about his past experiences, and we thought it was a good idea for him to "roll" into the Hot Seat. At that time, it just seemed very comfortable and quite natural to start.

The hardest part was when we kept talking about the experiences, and we didn't put enough effort and time when focusing on the feelings. I felt that this is where pacing is really important: we kept jumping to conclusions about the feelings and how they were connected to the past. Each time we tried to focus on a feeling like clenching fists or tightening shoulders, we again started talking about the past. It seems like the most obvious cause for that feeling may not necessarily be what the real issue is. We all agreed that we only scratched the surface, and maybe we could try again to dig deeper.

I also think that being the receiver and mirroring is really really hard at first. I tried and tried to feel the clenching fists, but I felt sort of empty: I couldn't feel the burning rage or helpless anger, so-to-speak. Everyone said they could feel the feeling, and we just kind of moved on, and I was still on the platform when the train left. Had it just been the two of us, we would have been clenching fists all night long.

The good part was that the person on the Hot Seat is willing to give it a go again at the next meeting, and he felt very good about having done it once. Also, no one seemed to have that first-time awkward feeling, probably because I think we all really want to make this work.

Ed, thanks for giving us a phone call, and it was great hearing from you. Can you please revise our schedule to meeting weekly on Tuesdays, 630PM - 830PM? We are meeting more frequently in the beginning so that we can get used to the process sooner.


Yes, receiving is an essential role.



Mon, 2 Jun 2003


Listening to Her

"I have always felt that the way in which women communicate is similar to this. Women don't want a fix or judgment to their feelings about a situation -- they just want to be able to express them to someone who is a good listener (the receiver)."

I read this statement by another contributor in the FAQ and it resonates with my experience. I feel that the subconscious mind has feminine characteristics, while the conscious mind has masculine characteristics (i.e., women always find a way to get their 'message' to men, when they want to, or if their feelings are ignored. If the latter is the case, it can be a source of dramas.)

In esoteric circles moon, emotions and water are associated with feminine qualities. A lot of traders like to think of the market as an ocean ... Trends are associated with waves ... Also, a trader who was a kind of mentor to me, always refer to the market in the feminine. In fact, as they say, emotions drive the markets. Therefore we might say the market is feminine, and so is the subconscious mind.

The moral: don't try to understand or judge 'her' 'feelings'; be responsive and follow her trend.

Some theories stereotype men as logical, women as emotional.


Fully actualized men and women  allow Fred to communicate with CM, synthesizing logical with emotional.




Male and Female,

Sender and Receiver,

Logical and Emotional ...


all synthesize in actualized beings.


Clip: www.orura.com/cards/p14.jpg

Mon, 2 Jun 2003


Dear Ed,

Regarding my e-mail on May 30 2003 titled Risk and your response.

Thank you for the basic formula possibility. I feel I can handle much more risk at this moment however. I have been studying and thinking about what you wrote and may consider using it when my account grows much larger.


90% of the money I mentioned came from my trading account including the $140,000 I put into the house and the $27,000 new SUV. I started that account with only a few thousand dollars. I almost feel like the $20,000 in the bank is a waste not being traded (that was also taken from my stock account as a safety measure when the stock market was very choppy a few months ago).

I do however realize you have made it to where I want to be and I will continue to study and apply what you have said.

I took the risk idea you mentioned and did something a little bit different. I noticed many computer chip related stocks breaking new, 6 month to 1 year highs and started to buy them on Friday May 30, 2003. I bought in smaller amounts such as lots of 100 shares. I also added some other stocks breaking to the upside. In the last e-mail I fully experienced buying too much of one stock.


I wanted to get it over with and fully experience over diversifying, although I bought many stocks in the same sector (semiconductors). I usually do not do this but here it is.

The small account I mentioned on Thursday May 15th 2003 entitled Risk where I made 300% in about 15 months gave me the idea to test buying smaller amounts in my larger account. Maybe this will work for me. I have my $40,000 account in all cash now in order to reduce my risk and stress. I am just focusing on my larger account now.

The funny thing is it felt like I was trimming a Rose bush or something. Kind of nice.


My account was up close to $10,000 during the day before settling back to being up only $2,963.25 for the day.

The market has been moving nicely to the upside for several weeks now and I am wondering if the stocks that have rallied will run out of steam for a while.


Some of the [sector #1 stocks] have gone up crazy in the last few days. I wonder if professionals would buy so extended?

[Sector #2] went up well so far even though they have increased in price significantly. Some of them seem to be forming new bases.

[Sector #3] has become very choppy although still strong lately also.

It would be nice for my portfolio, if money started to cycle into [Sector #4]. [Sector #5] look2 to be firming up also but a little less strong than the other one.

The breakouts have been volatile but good for months now. I have been shaken out of many up trending stocks. Maybe I can have more staying power during uptrend volatility with the smaller share amounts. That is if the market cycles the money towards the stocks I own and doesn't just sell off all together.

Anyway....still testing and learning..


You are having nominal swings of $10,000 on a $140,000 account.


Likely you might get a $15K - $25k swing on a big day ... That's one way to make (or lose) a lot in a hurry.


Your stomach lining knows how much risk you can take. 


Make sure Fred in not setting you up for a drama, to get you to listen to some essential feelings, like fear.




Fear-Less Trader



Clip: www.studiofoglio.com/tpu/





Mon, 2 Jun 2003

Now documented: Brain Kills Profits, part 2

A friend helped me figure out what I did:

I was making secret discretionary trades under cover of a system, not "tweaking" the system like I thought when I first wrote you. Tweaking means making adjustments to the system. In fact I didn't change the system at all. I was trying to predict the future and make trades outside of the system.

I abused the system by trying to get into moves early, or trying to catch moves that the system wasn't set up for.

I also used the system as a yardstick for my secret discretionary trading. It seems unbelievable to me now, but I consciously kept track of how many points I was ahead of or behind the system along the way.

I like the thrill of day trading, but I just lose money day trading. I swore off of it until I could show a monthly profit on paper. But like my friend said, I used my system as secret cover to keep that day trading activity going.

Realizing what you are doing, and resolving to mend your ways ... does not ensure behavior change.


Take your feelings of wanting excitement into TTP and let Fred sort it all out with CM.



Oh Baby, Baby ... Yes Yes Yes !

I just beat my system by two ticks.


Clip: www.bmw.ca/english/


Mon, 2 Jun 2003

Dear Ed,


Uncertainty and lack of confidence are concepts, not feelings.


It is true, thank you.


The feeling behind them is something that has been with me for a long time. It is feeling that I missed an opportunity in the past, is it regret? Maybe guilt?


I do not feel it right now, but I remember it and it is not pleasant at all. Right now I am trying to avoid it by making sure I do everything, what helps me succeed. Especially in the area as important as feelings, including the regret, guilt and all others.


All my life I have been doing a lot by myself and I am tired. It is hard for me to ask for help ... and admit that I can not do something on my own, it is hard to rely on somebody else, instead of just myself. Actually, I just discovered it as I am writing ... I feel lighter ... I feel hope ...
I greatly appreciate your help.

These items:


I missed an opportunity




Are all concepts.


Feelings have properties like size, shape, texture, temperature, weight location, spin, sound, taste, etc.


A good receiver can help you focus on feelings.




Infra Red Receiver


Good for Feeling Heat





Mon, 2 Jun 2003


Manhattan Group Feedback

Hello Ed,

<<Everyone has a Fred, and all the Freds connect together. Under Fred is the primary communication network that connects all the Freds. >>

Would you care to elaborate on the Under Fred concept?

I have read quite a few books by Ram Dass. As you probably know Ram Dass formerly known as Richard Alpert, a Harvard professor, a son of a wealthy Boston lawyer, who ran off to India for answers to his questions on existence, mysticism, and spirituality.

One of his books is The Only Dance There Is. He talks about cosmic consciousness that links all of us.

There have been some interesting double bind studies done about groups getting together lets say in Wisconsin and praying for a patient in New York. Amazingly the patient who was prayed for did much better case after case than other patients in the same hospital with the same disease !

Are they tapping into a collective under Fred network?

I appreciate you taking the time to read this and I look forward to your response.

Best Regards

PS. Our Manhattan group is doing really well, everyone seems to be catching on to TTP.

Under-Fred specializes in bringing people together to work out dramas.







One of Under Fred's Secret Agents





Clip: www.chamomiletimes.com/



Mon, 02 Jun 2003

Weekend Tribe Meeting Feedback



Thank you for inviting us to the Weekend Trading Tribe Meeting. For me, it was a life altering experience.

The hike was challenging, rewarding, and enormously informative.

I cannot believe that I was out in front leading the singing for our session in
front of the Microphone, out in public. It has been years since I have felt comfortable
in front of a crowd.

Again, thanks for the weekend's fun and frolic. I am planning on coming to the Thursday's tribe meeting.


I feel, I feel, I feel, fully experiencing hot feet and stressed gluts, and exhilaration of climbing to 8111 feet, under my own steam (admittedly putt putting at the top).

Sharing some extraordinary moments with a load of Honkie Tonk singing and banjo
twanging - loads of fun. Let's do it again! I'm ready.





Scouting Party above Marlette Lake


Hot Seat Friday Night

Hike Saturday Morning

Singing in Public Saturday Night


You can support Fred

and have fun at the same time.







Mon, 2 Jun 2003

Risk-Based Position Sizing

Dear Mr. Seykota,

I want to thank you for your generosity in sharing so many of your insights as well as for your great book recommendations.

I just finished reading "Emotional Intelligence", which has helped increase my own self-awareness, which in turn will surely help in developing my own self. What I take away from the book in terms of trading is that trading, above all, is about intrapersonal emotional intelligence (self-awareness and self-discipline), i.e. controlling impulse, putting of gratification, regulating one's moods, and continues self-motivation.

I also recently read your article on risk management and wanted to ask you if risk-basis position sizing is a sound way of optimizing position size, given that both the probability of being right, and the payoff, are unknowns before one enters into a position in the market?

Thanks again for your insights and inspiration.

All the best,

The thing you measure generally improves; to manage risk, measure risk.



Measure Twice

Cut Once


Clip: http://hul.harvard.edu/huarc/



Mon, 2 Jun 2003


Irrational beliefs vs. feelings

Dear Ed,

Thanks again for a superb 'life-changing' forum. I wanted to get some clarity from you on the matter of thoughts/irrational beliefs actually causing feelings.


There is a well-know concept in modern psychology (cognitive psychology, to be precise) that our thoughts/beliefs about a particular event or situation result in specific feeling (s) re that situation, ie. the way we interpret a situation determines how we feel.


A simple example: a dog barks, resulting in a person feeling fear. The reason the person feels fear is because he interprets the situation (barking) as being dangerous/a threat ("This dog will bite me", for example, is the specific thought which leads to the emotion of fear). Another person may interpret the dog's barking as a willingness to play, and therefore feel good or excited about the dog (all based on the initial thought / belief / interpretation about the event).

Relating this to the TTP: when I concentrate on feeling the feelings, I often become aware of the thoughts that may have led to those feelings eg. "I'm stupid/no-good etc etc".


My question is, do you not think it is helpful to deal with these thoughts/beliefs - by verifying them, for example, as being true or false, as a way of effectively dealing with the feelings?


The aim being, if one can cognitively show oneself that one is not stupid at all (possibly even intelligent, in fact), by pointing out one's academic accomplishments/past intelligent behaviour for example, then the feeling which is associated with being "stupid" will in fact dissolve.


My concern in not dealing with the irrational thoughts/beliefs (and only feeling the feelings) is that those feelings will re-occur and re-occur (perhaps in other situations) unless the underling irrational beliefs about oneself (which led to the feelings) are not dealt with, by for example verifying them as being true or false.

Your comments on the subject will be greatly appreciated, and also what to do about those irrational beliefs when they come up while feeling the feelings ie. perhaps ignore them/just keep feeling whatever comes up etc.

Thanks very much.

See The Trading Tribe Process for a model and techniques.


If you could simply make up your mind to control your feelings:


you would always act rationally

you could follow systems easily

you would rarely feel sad, angry, afraid, etc.


There is little evidence that anyone enjoys such conscious mastery.


Your reaction to the barking dog occurs way before you become consciously aware of the dog.



Sometimes a Barking Dog

is just a barking dog



Clip: www.artinspiration.com/



Sun, 1 Jun 2003 19:44:18 -0500

Minneapolis Trading Tribe


I live in Minneapolis, Minnesota and am interested in starting a trading tribe in my area. I have done quite a bit of reading on the interaction of emotions and logic and am convinced that reconciling the two holds great potential in a person increasing their effectiveness in life. I have am familiar with TTP and would like to explore it further.






Minnesota !


See: Tribe Directory Page



Minneapolis, MN


Clip: www.offensedefense.com/


Sun, 1 Jun 2003


Newsgroup discussion instead of Q&A?

Dear Mr. Seykota:

While I enjoy reading the FAQ and am very happy to have gained certain insights, may I ask if you may change the format from a Q&A to more like a newsgroup, with you still guiding us but allow others to join the discussion?


There were times when I would like to make a comment or ask the author a question to certain postings because I had similar experiences, and there is no easy way to do so.


Also for someone who makes multiple follow-ups on his question, it is getting to a point where at times it is difficult for me (and perhaps others too) to keep track of his original concerns.

In any case, thank you very much for the website. I feel I have learned a great deal through the others' questions and from your responses. Thank you wholeheartedly.

FAQ is a classroom forum in which traders can ask questions, become examples, and support each other.  See Ground Rules.


You can join or start an intentional community and interact at intimate range.


You might have some feelings about wanting to control things. This tendency can be plenty expensive in the markets.




Some Students Prefer Classrooms Without Adult Supervision


Clip: www.redirectingbehavior.com/


Sun, 1 Jun 2003


Ode to Fred

(from a friend a Tribe Member)

Fred does not recognize boundaries
Fred will not stay in the box
Fred is not fond of orderly lines,
Restrictions, prescriptions, constrictions, or fines.
Fred cannot stand keys or locks.

Fred often exhibits bad manners.
Fred likes unconventional means
Fred only works when it feels like play
Creating, relating, elating all day
Fred loves to fly in our dreams.

All my best,

Women dig Fred ... and they dig men who let Fred out.




Fred:  Fierce and Playful


among other things


Clip: www.farmertan.com/


Sun, 1 Jun 2003

The Stopwatch is a Stopwatch


I wanted to follow up my earlier e-mail about time frames. I apply a simple m/a system to futures not stocks (not yet anyway), on futures it catches the meat of the swing / trend, maybe it can help with stock trading. The data is intraday but the trades are not and of course it takes considerable thought to develop rules that suit the individual. I have software that plots these indicators, but it would seem that they could as easily be calculated on a spread sheet.

30 minute price bars

30 minute exponential moving average 13 period

90 minute exponential moving average 13 period (calculated on 90 minute data)

120 minute exponential moving average 13 period (calculated on 120 minute data)

I prefer to not show the price bars on the chart once the m/a's have been plotted.

I review the charts to determine how the m/a's are getting along with each other, and I pay close attention to managing my trading capital. I would be interested on more info on your seminar when you get around to it.


The value of an exponential average obtains per:


At = At-1 + dt/T (Pt - At-1)



Average Now


Average Last Period


Sample Interval


Time Constant


Price Now


For Example: Say a price is stable at 5 and then changes to 10. You sample the data every 5 minutes and use a 25 minute Time Constant.



































6.00 = 5 + (5/25)(10 - 5)

6.80 = 6 + (5/25)(10 - 6)


The Exponential Average decays toward ten.


A sampling interval of 30 minutes (30 minute price bars) is way too large to compute a 30 minute exponential average with any accuracy.