Е Ed Seykota, 2003 ... Write for permission to reprint.

Ed Seykota's

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November 9-15, 2003



(Quotes from Ed in Red)


Sat, 15 Nov 2003

I just forgot to check the stop loss.

I made a mistake. I am long stock. Check prices every day. Adjust stops if necessary. I forgot to check this stock. Stock price declined. Stock must be sold. Position shows a small loss. Entered an order to sell at market on opening at the next session.

I feel sad. I feel like crying. I feel tired, as if I cried a long time and am tired from crying. I see myself scolding myself for not being alert.

I keep alert. Review my stops every day. I forgot - maybe neglected is a better word - about this stock.

Make mistakes sometimes, not often. Image appears - I am pulling a weed out of my garden.

I just forgot to check the stop loss.

When Fred wants you to feel sad, tired, scolded, Fred may set up a justifying drama for you, such as "forgetting" to check your stops.


When you allow yourself to feel these things, Fred no longer needs to set up drama, and you might notice you can enter stops with your broker, GTC, that you do not have to "check."



Stops and Stop Signs


can help control risk


Clip: http://www.bicyclinglife.com/


Sat, 15 Nov 2003


Did Any NY Intensive Leaders

Go to Ed's Workshop in NV

Just wondering how it went and if there were certain things that you "could share" with others.

I understand that you have to adhere to non-disclosure parameters and I in no way am asking for info you shouldn't divulge. However, if there were some things that you were taught that Ed said "could be shared back with your tribe" That might be helpful to non-attendee Tribe Leaders. Thanks for your thoughts.

Also was there any talk of a manual or video course that could be purchased at a later date


Anyone may assemble and conduct meetings to discuss, teach and use anything on the Trading Tribe Site - as long as it is (1) not-for-profit, (2) absolutely free to participants, (3) at the risk of the presenters and participants. See FAQ Home Page & Ground Rules, above.


I am currently preparing a course and training people to deliver it.


For now, FAQ presents a fairly comprehensive collection of the concepts and applications.




The Trading Tribe


supports free association

to discuss the materials on this site,

even in the House of Commons,

especially there.


For commercial use, see Ground Rules.



Clip: http://www.parliament.uk/


Sat, 15 Nov 2003

Inter Tribe Communication

Account Funding

I am working with this task about account funding. I try to locate underlying feelings about achieving this goal. I do not feel comfortable about this change. I mean, the idea of this achievement rather scares me. I can feel it like a light pressure or tension in the stomach area, linings and guts.

I also acknowledge I need help from other people to achieve this and other goals in my life.


I dislike receiving help from other people and I shrug it off. I even feel rather sick about it. It feels like it threatens my freedom. Yes, I am afraid of losing my freedom if I receive help from other people.

Perhaps you have some some trust / intimacy issues.  You might take your feelings into a Tribe Meeting and practice sending and receiving.






means sending and receiving




Fri, 14 Nov 2003


Inter-Tribe Communication
Co-dependency Court

Over the past few days I could ID some some judges of the co-dependency court of law and I making peace with them:

Fear about ingratitude;
Fear about the feeling of abandonment;
Fear about external judgment and invalidation.

I also ID strong judgments on my part about the needy individual's feelings and start validating them the way they are and the way they are not. Ed's turtle example is quite valuable and helpful.


Fri, 14 Nov 2003


TTP Pollination - Spreading the Word

Ref: Virtual TTP

One way to start a Tribe is to show this site to some friends and see if they show an interest.

Yes. I have been telling some friends about the site and some show interest. Also celebrating the feelings of fear about judgments and invalidation.




Just Fall Into It


and radiate





Fri, 14 Nov 2003


Trend following

Ref:  No Beginning or End

I am feeling rather uncomfortable, however, with the feeling that issues seemingly never stop arising and that I have to be in a perpetual "trend following mode" .

Trend following feels like traveling
in spiral, with no beginning and no end.

Yes, the price of liberty is eternal vigilance.

Yes. I am taking the very judges about trend following and validating them.


Fri, 14 Nov 2003



Ref: Hunger to Learn

Thank you Chief so much for the immediate feedback on my email. It feels so good to be listened to and I'm having a positive experience with your comments about confusion. Thank you for giving me better perspective.

Warm regards,


Fri, 14 Nov 2003

Setting Them Free


Thank you for posting responses to my last e-mails.

This is the third time this has happened. I have an issue. I don't think I'll ever get to the answer. I get on the hot seat. I experience my feelings, and the answer presents itself ... it's truly amazing.

I'm starting to believe (I have goose bumps on my right cheek when I say that out loud).

Last night, I brought my feelings about judges to the hot seat. The first feeling I felt was anger, "They judge me, and I'll judge them right back." got the feeling going for me, I let this escalate from my burning lungs up my throat and into a scream. I relaxed. The angry feeling passed.
Then, I felt my feelings about judges, it was in my face, I grimaced, then I put my hands on my face and grimaced more. As the tribe rallied behind me, I pushed my hands to my face more and more. I was grimacing, big time. I relaxed. My breathing became calm. The feeling passed.

I felt clam, and my thinking was no longer fuzzy about judges, and judgment. My thoughts became clear.

My 'happy judge' is a judge that does not pass judgment. He listens and accepts people for what they are, period.

We're all different, and that's such a wonderful gift.

The judge 'who judges right back', is gone, the judge who sat on the fundamental vs. technical trial is gone. They're all gone (set them free?).

Respectfully yours,





Butterfly Emerging


to freedom




Butterfly Emerging


as an electron cloud



Clip: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/



Clip: http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/


Fri, 14 Nov 2003


Virtual TTP


I am here for the first time.

I like the idea of personal growth and to work on your self.

The Tribe concept seems like a very good opportunity to do this. But when I started to imagine a TTP meeting, that I would start in my community (its in Poland),


I wouldn't know how to start, what to talk about, or how to receive, when there's no-one around who has done it before.

So my question: Have you ever thought of setting up an chat-room on your web site, running real TTP sessions, and people could experience how it works, be the observer and get the idea?

best regards,

I promote the work through this site, by conducting the Incline Village Trading Tribe and by presenting an occasional Workshop.


One way to start a Tribe is to show this site to some friends and see if they show an interest.

Thu, 13 Nov 2003


Steady Hand

Reno Workshop Feedback

Dear Ed,

Some good things are happening to me due to the Workshop in Reno. Even though I need and would like some more processing, I feel much calmer.

Before the Workshop I had a slight shake in my hand when I just tried to hold it still in the air. I thought it was normal. Since the workshop I can hold it perfectly steady and the past shakiness does not seem so normal.

I am up in my account another 25% for the year or about 10% since the workshop. I have directly experienced the smoothing process that you mentioned in your risk management section due to me spreading my risk more. This week in particular may gains offset my losses.


After I cut away the loser stocks, my account continued a steady advance and I put the loss money right to work with more new high breakouts.

Sincerely and Calmly,






One Digit at a Time


Clip: http://www.thegreatillusion.com/



Thu, 13 Nov 2003



Dear Ed,

In FAQ entitled "Thank You for Everything" on November 3rd, the author mentions a lockout clause relating to managing other people's money. I am considering managing others' money. Please elaborate on this clause. Thank you for all you do with FAQ.


Locking accounts to prevent withdrawals might be part of a drama relating to fear of shortage.


You can also set up a plan in which clients  may withdraw funds at will and deposit funds only once.


You might consider how these various strategies affirm your own intentions - and what they communicate to clients.



Locks Can Appear


on both sides of the door


Clip: http://www.teleflex.com/index2.html

Thu, 13 Nov 2003


Stop Outs Feeling Better

Hi Ed !

Just thinking, day before yesterday got stopped out of [xxx]. Yesterday it went up which disturbed me but I felt did the right thing by taking the stop. Now doing the right thing is evident in reality - for [xxx] came down again. Doing the right thing for myself and feeling the feelings.

Thank you again.

One of the advantages of a system is that it is does not care about short term results, does not change method per the latest wiggles.


When you can find joy in the system, no matter what the short term results, you can likely stick to it.



A Flywheel System


keeps the engine moving

between power strokes.


Clip: http://www.stirling-tech.com/


Thu, 13 Nov 2003


More TTP 4 kidz

Ref: TTP 4 Kidz

Hi Ed !

After some experience in TTP, I wonder how these suppressions we discover are created. More particularly, how can one live so they aren't created? So life flows instead? In the grand overview, what are the guidelines to set one's life course to achieve the 5th item in your ground rules, a noble ultimate goal, the biggest AHA you've described, IMHO.

My son's mother answered my first question yesterday with a live demonstration.


After [my son's] positive experience in TTP a few days ago, I watched in awe as she re-installed the same emotion and suppression.


She spent hours, as methodically as in a tribe meeting, carefully searching for an entry point, entrancing him, then filling him up with the same feeling, while at the same time invalidating him for feeling it! Voila! Suppression installed! Same day service! What a spectacle!

As a consolation, I expect to win our racquetball game this afternoon. More work to do.


Very nice example.  Welcome to the nip.


Avoiding suppression implies judging suppression.


You might consider validating her for exactly what she does, including how she "teaches" judgments about feelings.



You Can Tie (K) nots in Feelings


by teaching the feeling

and also a judgment "not" to feel it.


You can untie a "not"

 by validating it.


(K) nots give people personality, and motivate their dramas.


The nip of a knot

is the point at which it seizes itself

and becomes a knot.


The nip is the judgment.


The two knot systems above

are topologically equivalent.


It is generally easier

to make knots appear different

than to untie them.




How to Tie

Your Child's Feelings

up in (K) nots









How to Untie (K) nots












Thu, 13 Nov 2003


Hunger to Learn - Female Traders

Hi Ed

I have so much to say to you and am sure an email will not suffice. My life has been an amazing journey, a large part of it spent studying with a metaphysician, herbalist, bio-energetics therapist, speculator, human called George Dillinger in San Diego.


The speculator part of our friendship came about when he taught me a bit about winning in the casino and the racetrack and then later when he introduced me to commodities trading two years ago.

George passed over a couple of months ago leaving behind a blossoming beginner trader (that's me) in search of more knowledge about myself and the trading world. My hunger to learn is an unstoppable force.


That's even been true on some of my darkest days. Having dabbled in more careers than I care to list, I have made a commitment to become a full time trader.

I have noticed that there are very few successful female traders.


I sometimes get the insecure feeling that I shouldn't expect to go where so few women have gone. And then a light goes on inside me and I turn that around to say why shouldn't I dare to go where so few women have gone? Isn't that an exciting idea.

I could go on and on. I'm very excited about having found out about your Trading Tribe and your philosophy. I like the way you stress the importance of paying attention to Fred and interaction with the Conscious Mind. Many discussions with George revolved around the dramas I was having and how to confront them.

I currently live in Australia and will be coming to the states for a visit next year. I am hoping to have the opportunity to meet with you at that point, possibly for a private consultation if you are open to that idea.

I've been looking at the Turtle Trader site and have wondered if the first thing I should do is take the Turtle Trader Trend Following Educational Course. I'd appreciate your advice. Perhaps you will want to know a bit more about what I have already studied.

I'd love some input from you so I can set some goals. As I said, I'm a beginner. I'm excited because I survived two years on my original account and I've heard the horror stories about the beginning years of trading. I've learned a lot about "not losing." I want to learn more about winning.

By the way, I live in Melbourne Australia. I did send an email to Brendan in Melbourne but have not yet received a reply from him. I would love to have a support group to share with and receive feedback from.

I guess I'll stop here for the moment.

As you can well imagine, I'm very excited to hear from you.

Warm regards,

P.S. Have you ever had an interest in doing a workshop in Australia?

Yes, I receive inquiries about presenting Workshops in various places.  I am currently preparing materials and a book.


Some people seem to enjoy the feelings of confusion, of not knowing things, of puzzles - they even seem to have a hunger for the feeling.


People who do not like these feelings, and avoid them, seem to have dramas about not being able to learn.


One way to help people learn is to help them experience the feeling of confusion, and notice its positive intention.






some enjoy the experience


Clip: http://fusionanomaly.net/puzzles.html


Thu, 13 Nov 2003

The Genie Within


I have read about you and many others that what I consider gifted in their endeavor.
I have been working on this.

Is it true that, when one wants to have the genie, one must be passionate that when he or she found the genie, he must then give it away.

If you adopt the Genie model, as a metaphor for creativity ... you get to make up your own operator's manual.


You might note that your words,


(1) wanting to have

(2) found

(3) must give

are all in different time zones.  You might consider re-writing in SVO-p, so as to connect them all in the present.




The Genie Metaphor


may have an upside limit

at three wishes.


Clip: http://www.cyberparent.com/


Thu, 13 Nov 2003

Cost of Carry on Currencies

Hi Ed,

Seems that it's much easier to trade Spot FX if you don't want the hassle of cost of carry.


Cost of carry appears in Spot, FX and in futures. 


Arbitrageurs tend to equalize the markets. 


The cost of carry may be positive or negative depending on interest  differentials and trader expectations.



The Cost of Carry


may vary


Clip: http://www.michaelkitada.com/


Wed, 12 Nov 2003

Position Sizing (See FAQ: 10/16/2003)

Dear Mr. Seykota,

I have some confusion regarding a posting on the FAQ on Oct 16 titled "Position Sizing." The person demonstrates a position sizing method you taught him that allows him to add size as the trend grew, and you wrote in response and said, "Yes...the idea is to control initial entry risk ... profits take care of themselves."

The lesson I learn is - as a trend follower, when a position shows profit of certain amount, one way to ride the trend is to add more size.


And one way to determine how much size to add is to calculate the paper-profit at that moment, then divide by how much you are willing to risk (current price - stop price), and get the number of shares. This way of position sizing allows a person to be wrong more than 50% and still be profitable.

With an electrical engineering background and currently working as a Quant, I am very interested in this example. It seems consistent with your philosophy of trend-following (which I have a growing appreciation), and the risk-management article on your website. So I try to apply some real world example, and I run into a problem.


Namely, the methodology seems to work great UNTIL the one time that the stop is hit, which it eventually will.

With a methodology like this one in the FAQ, the only way the trader exits a position is when the price hits the stop.


Then regardless whether the trader has added position (or start losing from the get-go), the end result is the same: a loss (because each new addition's size is open profit / risk).


It may show very good profit along the way as the market trends and the trader adds size ... until that one day the price hits the stop. Then the last piece the trader adds will cancel the paper-profit, and the earlier trades end up a loss.

So I was shocked when I reached this conclusion, that strictly applying the
method (as I tried to)
will always give me a losing trade, just a matter of time before market moves to my stop.


OK, so I think of some ways to avoid always coming out losing, like


A) putting a much wider stop,


B) stop adding after, say, 3 times, or


C) adding only a fraction of the shares that the example suggests.


However, each of these alternatives seem to lose the essence of the lesson I learn from the example.


With Proposal A, the trade will still show a loss when the stop is hit, as no stop is low enough that it will never get hit; With Proposal B, it seems to lose the meaning of riding the trend, because who is to say the trend will stop after I have added 3 (or any) times? And as a trend-follower I'd like to follow it as long as I can; With Proposal C, I am losing the essence of the example, because the lesson I learned from it is to add the size equivalent to open profit / risk.

It seems such a straight-forward example and yet I feel I am missing something. I have a feeling that once I find that missing piece, I will be like, "Aha, why didn't I think about that before?" Am I simply misunderstanding the example? Can you please provide some guidance?


Many thanks.

You might notice you derive an objective number, 50%, from subjective premises.


You might take your feelings about stops getting hit, taking losses, into TTP and look for positive intentions.


You claim to have a method, to be a "Quant."  If so, you can run computer simulations to find optimal risk management strategies.


The "missing piece" may be  emotional concerns masquerading as logic.



The Drama

From Repressed Feelings


can masquerade as logic.


Clip: http://www.insiderssystem.com/



Wed, 12 Nov 2003


Judges - Happy & Grumpy


At the TTP seminar, you used great skill to locate, define, and dissolve judges.


Can you add detail to the process of locating / finding, defining, navigating, and dissolving / setting free judges? Who is the happy judge? What are helpful techniques our Tribe can use?

Thank you for sharing your expertise.

PS: Update: Trading going well after volatility of a week ago. TTP and expressing feelings instrumental.

If you have a feeling you don't like, the "I don't like it" part is a judgment about that feeling.


That judgment may prevent you from experiencing the feeling.


You can locate the author of that judgment, a judge, itself a feeling.


When you experience a judge, it disappears - then you can more easily experience the original (entry) feeling.


Sometimes you might not like to experience the judge, if you have another judgment about that judge. So the judge is a Grumpy Judge.


In that case, go to judge #2 that judges the Grumpy Judge and see if you can experience that one.


If Judge #2 is also grumpy, you can proceed up the stack of judges until you find the Happy Judge. When you experience the Happy Judge, with all his joy of judging, the whole stack of judges, and the entry feeling all disappear in a flash.



Keep Experiencing Them Until You Find


The Happy Judge


Clip: http://www.cardozo.net/life/


Wed, 12 Nov 2003


LA Tribe

Hi Ed,

I would like to start a Tribe in the LA area.
My previous post was on Monday the 3rd of November.

In that post I requested other contact information for the then current LA tribe. Apparently they have gone on a walkabout.




Los Angeles,



You are in the Tribe Directory



Los Angeles


Clip: http://www.photo.net/photo/pcd0222/






Wed, 12 Nov 2003


Options Code

Hi Ed,

Just to let you know that I have re-written my system to use Options as stops.


I enclose a copy of the system, without code, so that you can see the key indicators.


The key point to note about this system is that it is driven by time and profit and not by stops. I will be reviewing the code first thing tomorrow and then will build a Short version. I noted your point about carry costs for currencies and I will find out about these and code as necessary.


FAQ does not endorse traders or commercial products, or offer instrument-specific trading advice, or recommend specific trading system parameters. See Ground Rules.


You can find a number of good programmers to help you with your system encoding and testing. 


Wed, 12 Nov 2003


Taking Unresolved Feelings Home

Hi Ed !

I notice phenomena following tribe meetings.


When one opens up the usually-hidden Fred to the tribe circle, if the feeling is not accepted, experienced and cleared on the hot seat, then that feeling continues to resonate in one or more members for a few days afterward, even creating drama for other members, until it is recognized, consciously processed and dissolved.


An example is if Hot Seat feels a feeling, then a Judge suppresses it again, or is not willing to experience it. Two common ways of suppression: veiling it behind the labels 'past' or 'future'.

The positive intention of this aha is for tribe members to recognize this under-Fred phenomena, notice it after meetings, and most of all to actively participate during meetings to receive the hot seat presentation all the way through to heart-felt clarity, as well as for each sender to undertake this Work with courageous intent.


Unresolved work can follow one home, I notice.

Yes.  Good perception. We're all in this together.


To stay in process until hot seat gets to AHA, no matter how long it takes, takes real commitment on everyone's part..




Under Fred


helps us get what we want

whether we like it or not


The feelings

we are unwilling to experience

are our real trading system.




Wed, 12 Nov 2003

More Materials on TTP - When?

"Ed is currently preparing a training program and materials, leading to certification of mastery and right to use the Trading Tribe name and logo. These materials are not available at this time."

May you inform me when this material is ready, please? I am very interested in!


I am preparing it now, the only when that exists. 


As this moment of now continues to evolve, you may find a notice of availability on this site.

Wed, 12 Nov 2003


Inter-Tribe Communication

Reno Feedback

Pass and No Pass

Hi [XXX],

Thanks for the response; one of the cool things about TTP is that going after your dreams can be very contagious!

All the best, and please keep us all posted on FAQ.


[YYY] -- Thanks for the input.

The dreams that have emerged during our preparation for the upcoming Saturday intensive have not had the issue of being affected by possible changes uncontrollable by the dreamer. We have seen things far less materially specific but intensely emotionally specific and utterly convincing.


Instead of grandiosity we have seen dreams articulated from a deep understanding of what the dreamer can truly realize. They seem to emerge like some highly charged haiku or spontaneous brush painting accompanied by intense (and observably transforming) Ahhh! experiences. Most intriguing to me, each individual dreams seem to reflect the dreamer's core values. These often revolve around right intention, right livelihood, and right influence (returning something back to the world). The dreams seem to articulate the best part of the person, an embryo of the dream itself.

The groups of 4 you describe and the pass/no-pass process sounds like a great way to hone both sending and receiving skills. As I've indicated we're making a lot of this up as we go along. I feel that gods/Freds willing, a bit of guidance from others traveling the path, and honoring the individuals experience (and those Ahhhs) will move us along the path to those dreams.

Thanks again.


Hi Guys,

My name is [ZZZ]. I live and work out in California, San Jose Tribe, and I attended the Reno workshop. I read your itinerary for your intensive and I wanted to send a few of my observations from Ed and Charles:
Please understand I offer these items a trader who got "plugged in" at the workshop, it's what works for me, and may not work for anyone else.

"A "Dream" - A named, concise and vivid feeling based description (expressed in SVO-p) of you projected to the year 2023. Develop this as a "snapshot" in time;"

20 years is a long way away, two items came to mind when I read that: 1. You have to wait a LONG time until you realize that dream, which might discourage some, I feel different feelings when I achieve a goal and I achieve a dream; and 2. It doesn't allow for change, for example, let's say I'm 25 and my dream in 20 years is to be a huge macro fund manager, what happens if in 3 years I fall in love, marry, have kids, have made a lot of money in the 3 years and now I want to trade my own money in a place that's fun/safe for my children? My dream has changed, and I never got the fulfillment of realizing my original dream. By keeping dreams shorter, it may allow one to focus more clearly and some may feel better about achieving a dream, then dreaming a new dream.

The other item that was helpful was at the beginning of the workshop, Ed had us sit in groups of 4 and each take turns describing a feeling and the others would say "pass" or "no pass". Pass if the feeling was felt by the receiver and no pass if the feeling was not felt. The sender had to continue sending until the no pass, passed. Moreover, the receivers could not say anything to help the sender send. Just "pass" or "no pass". Without the aid of a good receiver, it forces the sender to really feel and describe. I found it helpful.

Just my thoughts.
All the best to you! Please post the results on FAQ.


Wed, 12 Nov 2003


Inter-Tribe Communication


Prep Work for NY Intensive

Goals and Dreams:

Differences and Clarification


Now that most of us have created the dreams which are congruent with our core beliefs. Just a few words to highlight what a goal should look like. There are some important differences between dreams and goals.

The word snapshot is used for both dreams and goals.

Goals for Saturday.

1. Positive
2. Detailed
3. Measurable
4. Completion Date (can be steps within steps)
5. Emotions

Do you see how goals are different from dreams? Dreams should not be detailed, measurable or have a completion date. Whereas goals should be concrete, these are the building blocks to your dreams.

Please remember X's goals as a good example, how he logs the number of times he experiences sabotage and his goal is 'six months from now sitting in front of his computer he sees a downward graph of sabotage occurrence'.

Another important note about our dream exercise. The point of 2023 was to discover what resonates with our core, what is it that we are born to do? Now that we have our dreams, we should start living them today, right away.


Wed, 12 Nov 2003



Mr. Seykota: You are the ONLY trader with whom I could (or would want) to talk.

Why do I trade? In the beginning it was to make me happy. Little did I know that happiness has nothing to do with money.


Then I lived potent flashbacks and understood the root of the problem. I hadn't been happy as a child and longed to be happy ever since.


So when I inherited money from the person who loved me the most and whom I disliked the most I engineered a plan to pay him back. And yes I did just that. The things the mind does are absolutely amazing.

Then I took time out to understand. And someone helped me with that - Krishnamurti. Oh I saw it all including my "self". You see we are made of three things:


It takes persistence and daily work to see our "selves". It is a life long journey. I became committed to truth and found that I had been lying for a very long time. Indeed, society is filled with lies. Starting with "education", we teach kiss lies and teach them to lie. We teach them metaphors which are limited and limiting and self-feeding. The "unconditional liberation of man" is that search for truth. I agree and I'll be quite explicit: I'm not totally interested in becoming totally liberated for if I did I wouldn't trade at all. I appreciate the Porsche, the expensive watches, the good house. Why not? I'm not the mystic and yes I borrow from the mystic but I do not feed the lies in society and in fact my conduct is "righteous". I do not harm.

So why do I trade now? I ask nothing form the market, I want nothing form the market. I wish nothing. I'm like the sailor. I love the sea. Flowing with the market (sea). That's why I trade. As such this is incorporated in my trading methodology - 90% of it is mechanical and I left 10% out to be discretionary. It's virtually impossible to program this in my computer: "Take profits when the market gaps by more than 20 points but do not do so if the market has reversed from a decline or climb" or, "take profits at the gap" or, "take profits at the Squeeze", or "the market will reverse when the week's range squeezes". I can't program any of this. It is virtually impossible and this all of this I can execute on my own.

When you flow with the market, you are one with it. It's not a question of being right or wrong. You are already beyond it, you simply flow with it. We are taught as kid s to concentrate our attention and to interpret things mentally, intellectually with our minds. What a waist. The enormous human potential which every kid has begins to be polluted, destroyed, conditioned at such an early age. When I was a kid I was given pain for being wrong. Those people lacked so much of the spirit. If only they knew the things I saw and continue on seeing. If only they knew! But they can't because it is not knowledge.

Trading is so terribly simple.







Without self-knowledge, we cannot go beyond the self-projected illusions of the mind. Self-knowledge, as we explained, implies not only the action of relationship between one individual and another, but also the action of relationship with society; and there can be no complete, harmonious society, without this knowledge.


Clip: http://www.krishnamurti.it/



Quote: http://www.kfa.org/

Wed, 12 Nov 2003


Contact Info for an Old Associate

Ed -

A few weeks ago you posted the contact email for an old associate that was still selling the software program that your old company produced. I have been going through the post but an unable to find it. If you could post it again, I'd appreciate it.


FAQ does not endorse traders or commercial products. See Ground Rules.


Wed, 12 Nov 2003

Mentoring / Private Training Sessions

Dear Mr. Seykota,

I have now seen your reply to my letter, in the FAQ section on the T/T website. Thanks for taking time to respond today.

Since you always get back what you give, both personally and monetarily, cost effective moves are not my 1st priority. I wish to maximize my absorption of the facts in a visit with you. Then I would not only be ready to join the next workshop, but could also possibly be beneficial to others there / not only myself.

As my current travel schedule does not allow me enough time home to commit to regular attendance of a tribe meeting, I feel that some "one-on-one" discussions with you will be the most productive and most logical move. (Hence, my earlier email to you today, proposing some possible visit dates etc.)

During the meeting (s) with you, I would like to accomplish the following /as a minimum;

- Getting my head out of the way / staying in the Now more

- Validation of my beliefs, about beneficial aspects in trading

- Sorting-out of my feelings towards losses / their magnitude

- Know types of testing required, to handle drawdowns easier

- Development of methods to create much better self-discipline

- Obtaining suggestions to improve my own risk control ideas

- Feedback on trading and testing ideas / Dennis Meadows

- Diminish the noise of the mind, for better concentration

- Getting in sync with moves - i.e; beyond / behind the bars

- Objective (professional) feedback on my trading method.

I sincerely want to meet with you in the near future regarding these various topics, as I'm convinced that "you can help me" to find many ways of transforming and improving myself ...

Best regards,

OK.  I suggest you begin, now, by locating, experiencing and validating the feelings you associate with each of your issues.


See Ground Rules, above, for information about private consulting.


Tue, 11 Nov 2003


TTP 4 kidz

Hi Ed !

Following your advice, [xxx] called today and we talked about the snapshot process, as he, [yyy] and [zzz] (Tribe Members) want to work on that.

Later in the afternoon, [my son] had some math homework. He has been unable to master some fairly straightforward concepts and consequently scoring 90s when he might otherwise score 100. So I surmise, why not try the snapshot process with him?

I briefly explain TTP, hardball and snapshots. Then we develop a snapshot wherein he is holding his math pack, smiling, pointing at 100 circled in red at the top of the page.
Then we name it, and process his feelings through hardball.

He's 13, so I don't know what will happen, whether he will retreat to teen 'coolness', or not know what I mean, or not go with it even if he does.

So I am pleasantly surprised as he proceeds through 3 layers. First in his chest, moving up to cause a headache, sweating face; next a nail poking him in the back, which came out with about 20 knuckle cracks; next spinal congestion, and he cracked most of his vertebrae. Then he fell into a deep sleep for about 10 minutes.

He woke up, did his homework assignment, and his mother scored it. He brought the booklet upstairs and with a big smile pointed to 100 circled in red.

We went to play our usual evening racquetball game where I always win. He won 21-10. That's never happened. And at dinner, instead of the silent teen, he was quite talkative and jovial.

I see how TTP might improve family relations and education.







The Essential Tribe



Clip: http://nie.uniontribune.com/



Tue, 11 Nov 2003

Post-Reno-Workshop Check In


Thank you for putting on the Workshop. It was the most unique and profound experience I have ever had.


The ceiling and walls which were closing in on my life are now gone. Goals are clear and vivid. Potential is alive and eager. My commitment to the process is unwavering. I know what I need to do right now to get to my goal.

In a strange way I feel like the line from a Joe Walsh song... "everybody's so different, I haven't changed." My children are having meaningful conversations with me. My wife's love and compassion bubbles out of her. The trading signals are clear and concise. How true it is that you receive from relationships what you bring to them.

My children now have a father who is not afraid to feel angry. Now I use that anger as an ally. Instead of yelling, or punishing, I now take anger as my signal that I need to do a better job communicating expectations, or in teaching appropriate behaviors. Now I use anger as an opportunity to explore their feelings and mine, to help understand how we can all learn from the situation. I cannot thank you enough for helping me to become a better parent.

The changes in my life are significant. I now understand a process by which I can uncover my "emotional instrument panel". A process which brings me closer to reaching my full potential.






It's Easier to Navigate


when you connect

with your instrument panel.






Tue, 11 Nov 2003


Incline Village Tribe Spin-Off


In addition to my attending the IVTT every other week, I would like to volunteer to accept any indications of interest (IOIs) for a Los Angeles Tribe.

Here are a few of my thoughts:

1) This group will form with your permission and will be moderated by me in the spirit of the IVTT.

2) Revealing my participation in the IVTT will be your choice.

3) Meetings will be held every-other-week, during the week that I'm not with you in Incline Village.

4) That whatever is shared within the IVTT shall remain, as always, confidential.

Tribally yours,



Los Angeles,



You are in the Tribe Directory



Los Angeles



Clip: http://www.luxury-hotels-resorts.com/


Tue, 11 Nov 2003

Bought Tape Years Ago

I ran across your trading sight and just wanted to say that years ago I bought a cassette tape of a presentation you gave at a conference.

I still remember your comments ... on trading.

in fact, I have had "ride winners, cut losers, and manage risk" on my trading computer for many years.

Thank You,

The same rules still seem to apply.

Tue, 11 Nov 2003


Art of Trading


How do you learn the art of trading?

Do you have to be an intern to be trained?

How can you intern for a successful trader?

How did you start?

Thanks for your time.

You might take the feelings of wanting to know how to begin trading, to a Tribe meeting - you may find lots of support.


You might find a lot of the basics at www.turtletrader.com, an extensive, and free, resource.

Mon, 10 Nov 2003

Day Trading

Hi Ed. Have you ever read a reputable study on why profitable day trading consistently over the long run will not work?


I see a lot of conjecture why it won't work and a whole lot of sites/systems that claim to have a method but I really would like to know what the facts are.

Thank you.

As trading frequency increases, the profit potential per trade decreases, while the transaction costs remain the same.



High-Frequency Roll-Off


occurs in stereo speakers

and in trading systems.


Clip: http://www.quadesl.com/speaker/


Mon, 10 Nov 2003


Historical Testing

I am in the process of designing a long-term trend following system and I am trying to determine the best way to use historical data.


I believe my confusion exists for two reasons. First, I am new to trend following and mechanical system testing so I don't have any experience in experiencing the difference between testing results vs. real results.


Second, I have read many a few theories on how to use historical data, all of which differ from each other. Adding to this, I can see the drawbacks and benefits of all, but I can't determine which I think makes the most sense or plays out the best
in reality.

Some people feel that using the entire 20+ year sample and finding the optimal results is the best way to test.


Others believe in separating the data in two and using the first data set to create the parameters and the other data set to test the parameters, in an attempt to recreate the uncertainty of the future. And perhaps lastly, others believe that only the last 10 years are the most important since the markets change so often.

I was wondering what logic you use when back testing. What type of method do you use?

Back testing intends to give you an idea of how a system behaves. 


You might try various methods to get different views.


The difference between testing methods might be less than the difference between following a system and not following it.




Be Sure to Back-Test


before you put a lot at risk.


Clip: www.ericps.crc.uiuc.edu/



Sun, 09 Nov 2003



Dear Mr. Seykota,

I remember there was an article on your site about Donchian rules which are jewels but I can't find it anymore. Is it available?


Click on Reference, above.

Sun, 9 Nov 2003

Inter-Tribe Communication


What about we trying an e-Hardball Process?

I have a goal I want to achieve and I feel some blockage.

I have two trading accounts, one for futures and other for stocks. Although I am not a professional trader and I don't intend to become one, I do want to make money out of my trading. I wish to fund the accounts properly so as to implement sound money management and stick to my system of trading, much like the professionals do.

I only want to commit risk capital and so I wish to get extra funds to fund the accounts, as my money is by no way risk capital. I feel there is a way I can do it. I might use my current trading skills to help other people to make money for themselves. I know an associate who is both willing to help me and get my help as well. So I need to be generous and open to help him.

I do not feel comfortable about sharing and helping him. There's a trace of presumption here on my part and I dislike and fear meeting with ingratitude.


Dear friends:


No achievement is a coincidence. You achieve something that you have comited previously to achieve which means that you set a GOAL to achieve.

But, to set this goal you must DREAM about a situation where you want to BE in the future. You must VISUALIZE the situation. You must BE and FEEL that situation , that dream.... Once you did and experience you set the GOALS that can take you to make your DREAM a reality...


this is a one on one technique that we practiced.

Each person declares to the other a GOAL that they want to achieve but where is a blockage to achieve.

For example, "i want to invest in commodities" or "i want to spend more time with my children" or "i want to resign to my job to become a full time trader"

Then both participants share their feelings and sensations as the usual TTP indicates alternating the sending and receiving...it is like both being in the hot seat at the same time. And so on....

All in all , i think this is also TTP but more dinamique...

But I cant theorize easily about it

By the way, I had a very good rapport with the guy from the [xxx] Tribe. He is a really fine and well balanced person and I think he must be a very good trader too..

All the best for all of you


Thanks for sharing !

We heard from other participants that Ed puts a lot of emphasis on having a clear definition of your dream and goals that lead up to the accomplishment of that dream.

We also heard about the new Hardball process: what stands between you and being great, a tool to dissolve the 'stack' of feelings between you and your goal. Could you please shed some light on these two things?


I have just arrived today from US.

A glance about about the workshop. We were 17 participants. Average age aprox 34 years. Percentage of full time traders aprox 35 % .
Main markets: futures and commodities. There was a participant from Incline Village Tribe that helped Ed in many tasks. Also Fallkner gave very good insights about PNL and TTP.

We begin on Friday avening until Sunday noon. But the real intense day was Saturday when we strarted at 8 am nonstop until 11 PM.

We practice the TTP in diferent ways. Is very interesting to do it with Ed because he is the "father of the creature" and he really masters the technique. Also he is a very clever and sensitive person. The climate was very supportive and friendly.

Regarding what can be done through internet I think that using a web cam and Netmeeting would be possible to do one in one sessions with better results than by email. Also I think than a phone conversation could be of value.

All in all ,what I had learn and I try to practice every moment is to feel the physical sensations that arise when I live a stressing situation. Just focusing in the bodily sensations. That means Fred is doing his job without interference and drama....

Warm regards to all you


Hi !


How are you doing?

I thought you might tell us something about your experience in the TTP workshop.

Best regards,


Sun, 9 Nov 2003

Inter-Tribe Communication


[xxx], thanks for your support.

I look forward to starting a physical tribe as soon as possible. I am inviting some friends and associates around.

Best regards,



Interesting that Ed correctly identified your issue with closeness. I believe Ed once said 'The feelings that we ignore end up running our life'.

<I have been applying the TTP principles to these situations and the drama intensity has been decreasing. However, I am not totally free from them.>

Speaking from personal experience, I have been working with TTP for the past six months, along the way there were times when I thought of abandoning it, there are times when sabotage would show up again in my trading. I would feel disappointed, discouraged. This is where my tribe comes in to support and prod me along; The tribe provides the cocoon where I feel safe to open up as I continue to experience my feelings, my many knots.

Once you are committed and I believe you are, you will notice many allies show up to support you. In our case we have had many allies show up from the various tribes to help us. As you work through your issues of closeness, I hope you will find a way to hold in person meetings.

All the best



TTP is an exercise in giving and receiving support. You do not need an official group to practice receiving - you can practice just in the process of life itself.

An intentional community, even an e-community, can provide intentional support in mastering both sending and receiving.

To the extent you might dislike feeling judgment and/or invalidation in close situations, you might be hesitant to join or start a physical group.

To the extent you acknowledge, share and celebrate your feelings about closeness, you may be able to convert them from adversaries to allies.

You can practice TTP wherever you are, simply by being a good receiver - and by celebrating people just the way they are and just the way they aren't - not trying to change them.

Sometimes the best way to attract people is to celebrate their desire to stay away.




Yes. I wish to make the transition to a physical intentional community. Closeness favors more intense experience of feelings. Nonetheless, the e-community has proven to be a very positive experience and I feel like keeping it, esp. for inter-tribe communication.

About me disliking judgment and/or invalidation in close situations, it is very true. Actually this has been a source of big dramas and suffering for me. There are a two kinds of invalidation or judgments I have a very strong dislike for and I fear them. I dislike being judged for "what I have or give to others" rather than for who I am, and I am not coping well with rejection too. This is so actual that I happen to be in the middle of one co-dependent relationship drama. In this kind of drama I usually feel compelled to "rescue", "redeem" a needy individual from their "bad fate", and I encounter with strong opposition, rejection, judgment and invalidation. My needs are not being acknowledged in these negative relationships, either by the other person and esp. by myself, as I suffer in the process. I have been applying the TTP principles to these situations and th e drama intensity has been decreasing. However, I not totally free from them.

The underlying feelings and their bodily sensations are very strong. As I experience them I get very stressed, although a peaceful and quiet state follows when they're over.

All in all I don't like closeness in general as I fear being judged and/or invalidated. Unfortunately, this is exactly what happens in a lot of instances.


Sun, 9 Nov 2003

TTP and Trend Following

No Beginning and No End


In my experience with the e-TTP I usually share the issue with the other members and then proceed to track the bodily sensations to the AHA point.


I am feeling rather uncomfortable, however, with the feeling that issues seemingly never stop arising and that I have to be in a perpetual "trend following mode" . It seems that I have been trying to figure out how to cope with the unexpected and unknown.

Best regards,

Trend following feels like traveling
in spiral, with no beginning and no end.

Yes, the price of liberty is eternal vigilance.

Sun, 9 Nov 2003

New Address for Palotina Tribe

Dear Ed and Friends,

I have a new e-mail address for contact: ttp@brturbo.com

I have also published community ground rules at: http://ttp.tripod.com.br.

Would you please update my contact information for the Palotina Trading Tribe?


Best regards,


Sun, 9 Nov


75 K - With Less Emotion


I just wanted to say thanks for everything you've done for me. It would have been very easy for you to have simply provided a trading system on your site. Like most people, I would have likely tried to copy it and probably failed.


Instead, I read most of the books you recommended and realized that I needed a system that had:

Objective entrance criteria for taking a position

Objective exit criteria for leaving a position

A risk management system for limiting my downside

A system for pyramiding, to increase my stake in winning positions

And finally, this system had to work within the realities of my life, such as how much time I have available.

I have created a system whereby I spend a few hours Sat or Sun morning downloading and entering market data into my db and my system tells me when to buy and when to sell.


Fortunately, I have taken most of the emotion out of my trading life. I have objective criteria for when to buy and sell, and I enjoy tweaking the system based on historical data.


Since implementing this system during the past summer, I have made $75K and I really wanted to thank you Ed. You are a great teacher.


Taking emotion out of life might result in you losing your emotional control panel.


You might consider experiencing your feelings, and getting to know their positive intentions.




Interest, Fear, Disgust

Anger, Sadness, Joy


Hard-wired and very useful.



Clip: http://www.utoledo.edu/~mcaruso/



Sun, 9 Nov 2003


Chinese Translation of TTP Complete

Dear Ed,

Hello from Taiwan

I completed the translation.

Let me know if there's anything you would like to change.

I have not given the link away, and I am the only one in the tribe, as for now.

I'll keep you posted.

The link is now on the TTP page.